real truth! - Posted by Fred (not real name)

Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA on June 17, 2002 at 21:00:56:

I don’t eat as many grease burgers as I let on. I am now active at the world famous Julian Whitaker Wellness Clinic in the Newport Beach/Costa Mesa area.

I would really LOVE to be around to see my little 2 year old Christina grow up and learn to invest. Our goal is to have her making and managing her own investments and be earning more that the average college teacher by age 9, though we have no plans to ever let her go to school, outside of our loving home.

I’ll be a healthy, skin 'n bones, by convention time next year, I hope. Big Macs are now mostly history for me, though I continue to kid about them.

I thank all of you for your concern and more well wishing e-mails than I could ever answer. This is such a wounderful group on this board. I hope I can continue to be here for many moons.

Regards, doc

real truth! - Posted by Fred (not real name)

Posted by Fred (not real name) on June 14, 2002 at 21:13:00:

I own two parks in the midwest. I came across this site many months ago and have to laugh everytime I visit. I have been selling homes on contract for over 12 years. During that time I have had probally 70 percent of the contract homes abandoned and turned back over to me. I own the property and am at the property daily. When the homes are given back 70% of them need a major overhaul. People just trash these homes like hilbillys and walk away. I am then stuck with paying $$$$$$ in repair. Keep in mind that I own the park and they still treat me this way. Also keep in mind I get at least $1,500 down. We run bakground checks.
I also know people who have sold on contract and they have also been burned all the time.

HERE IS MY COMMENT AND OBSERVATION:

There are too many things that can go wrong in a contract sale (lonnie deals). Say you buy a home in a park. The guy who bought the home from you lives there for 6 months and trashes the home and does not pay the rent for months. The park manager tells you to pay the back rent and that you must move the home out. The home cannot be moved out until the back rent is paid. Now what do you do?? Now multiply this by several houses and you can see where you could have a problem.

What happens if you then cannot find a park to take it to and you must dispose of the home.

Sure the above example is extreme but it can happen. I know the Chucks and Docs are going to rip me apart on this but I have been around long enough to know that this does happen. They will tell you all the right way to do it and that IM and idiot but I do speak the truth. Trust me the lonnie deals are not what they want you to beleave. Also, I no longer sell Lonnie style I buy low and sell for cash at about a 60% profit. I am not an idiot and I make a hell of alot of money. Lonnie deals I would not touch with a 10 foot pole.
I have witheld my real name and e-mail for obvious reasons.

OK guys rip me apart.

Cash Sales… - Posted by JHyre in Ohio

Posted by JHyre in Ohio on June 16, 2002 at 08:51:35:

Where does the funding come from? Right now, the banks aren’t financing very many people…I’ve done a few flips on nicer homes, but even they sit for months before somebody with cash shows up…even then, I sell at about a 40% discount to blue book, though I buy cheap enouh that I still double my money. I’d love to do more of these, but finding cash buyers has been hard. Any suggestions?

John Hyre

Curious… - Posted by JHyre in Ohio

Posted by JHyre in Ohio on June 16, 2002 at 08:43:57:

I have had mixed experiences with MH’s. Some go really well, some go as you described them. In my experience, the bad ones have been with pre-HUD homes in rural parks that have high lot rents and attract noting but complete deadbeats. I have a hard time getting more than $500 down in those parks- the only way I make money on those homes is to get them for free or close to it- not too hard given the number of abandoned homes in those parks. It’s also not worth my time to diddle with those homes…which is why I share the profits with the park manager so HE spends the time. The park owners are too cheap to make the parks nice or reconfigure them to accept bigger homes…so I like to be sure that I have very little (if anything) into the dinky old homes…I got burned too many times to act otherwise. Those were my first parks…I have since invested in other, nicer parks and picked up a few nice lots as well for more passive & profitable investments. I’ve seen the good and the bad of Lonnie Deals. They work, but as the man says in his books- you need to chose parks with care.

Are your parks like the ones I described? Just curious, I’d want to know WHY you get the sort of people that you do, particularly if you are dealing in 1990’s vintage 14x70’s and 16x80’s. Is your area permannently depressed? Where are you for that matter? How do your lot rents compare to market? Just curious, and I think that others could learn from your (and my) experiences and be more successful than you describe, or more successful than I was in my initial foray into Lonnie Deals.

John Hyre

Re: real truth! - Posted by Shawn J Dostie

Posted by Shawn J Dostie on June 15, 2002 at 18:42:26:

You know, There are several parts to this site and I assure you, there will be many different points of view from the folks at the commercial area as compared with the Carleton Sheets area, compared to here and financing area. I, along with another guy own and operate a used car lot in a small town. He (partner) has 1 duplex, 1 SFR, and has sold off 2 MH’s and another Duplex. I own a Duplex, a Triplex, a MH, a SFR, as well as the RE our lot is on. He is 64 I am 36. The things you say can and do go wrong. He is so much more conservative than I and can’t stand the idea of MH’s in parks. On land great, not on lots. I on the other hand am blessed with the resources and wherewithal to take a few losses if need be. I do believe that it takes considerable people skills. Doc , Scott, Tony, even Chuck have them even though we debate (Quite often) about the best way to use them. Anybody who believes you just put someone in and let her go is looking for trouble. Until a renter/buyer (no difference) has proven themselves (payment track record to me) I see them for some reason or other at least every 2 weeks. If you treat them as intelligent beings (regardless of what you really think) you get far better results. This is work. If it were easy to make lots of money in this, don’t you think every one would be doing it?

As far as a fella gettin behind on lot rent, how come you don’t know it before hand? I definitely do. My MH is a rental on a 2 acre leased lot and guess what? I collect rent including lot rent, and I pay the lot rent (still trying to buy it from them). I see an awful lot of people doing L/O and wholesale flips, and buy and hold, and subject to. There are some MAJOR pitfalls to all of those if you are not adequately prepared. This is just a forum for those of us with an interest to convene, cuss and discuss our particular passions. When we do, Us that have experience tend to assume that others know the pitfalls involved, except when someone asks something that needs a strong response. We also tend to be very positive because we are similar with respect to our thoghts regardin RE investing. We only argue with the truth. BTW if you are interested, I am certain that you can find someone to help you out with those bad deals you have. You may have tired of micromanaging them but you said you did it yourself for 12 years before deciding that all cash was better for you than terms (fast nickel vs. slow dime). If you qualify your Lonnie dealer to make sure he/she has the resources and the KNOWLEDGE you may end up with more $$$$ in Your pocket. As for not using your real name… It’s all right, when Doc and me disagreed, we didn’t call each other at 2 am. Even Chuck(AZ) never contacted me other than by email and we sometimes stand toe to toe (They don’t ever use the velvet hammer). Hey, Doc I’m hungry, how about faxing me a Big Mac.

Yours truly,
Shawn Dostie
loanwizard@brawal.com
loanwizard@hotmail.com
Coshocton, Ohio

risk and reward - Posted by tom bridge

Posted by tom bridge on June 15, 2002 at 10:54:03:

as investors we all want high yield with low risk. how is this possible in todays marketplace?

Information, knowledge, wisdon, and experience can make a truely sophisticated investor. one where high yields and low risk go hand and hand. investing truely on the inside where you have some input on the output of your investment.

there are many ways to go about this activity. even lonnie says take the cash sale if you can get it. anybody would because ones yield goes through the roof. with knowledge you can always find another investment with cash. truely sophisticated investors run out of cash very quickly (unless multimillionaire) as they see opportunity all around them. i know i am looking for money all the time.

if i believe for any reason my buyer is going to default, i pad myself with more cushion to cover such possibilities (increased colleral, more cash, bigger payments, more interest, highier sales price, etc…). most lonnie deals easilly allow for such controls by the investor, and usually they are free. hint, try it in the stock market, it is possible, but it will cost you.

for myself, i have been most interested with old mobiles on lots, so i don’t have to deal with the PM (just like you). but that is just what i want to do. i want to help people get into RE ownership. sure i could keep the lot and rent it to them for the rest of their life, but it is not what i want to do.

incidently i don’t think you are an idiot at all. if you can buy and sell for cash @ 60% profit, that seems pretty smart to me. i think lonnie would love such a return in such a short period of time. but for those who can’t do this, contract sales provide a way to make a high yield that can be safe. what makes it that way is the manner in which we do business, our knowledge and experience.

best of investing…
tom

OK FRED, LET’ER RIP - Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA

Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA on June 14, 2002 at 23:00:46:

Fred if you feel we are here to just rip people apart because we like to see innards, then I guess we have failed miserably in our true task, to examine facts and debate them openly so that each of us might learn as much as possible from each and every other person we meet here on CREonline.

Personally, I appreciate that you took your valuable time to write this post in a spirit of trying to help others avoid as many problems and pitfalls in investing as possible, learned through your own personal experience.

I think you have made MANY good points. Sure we may disagree with some of them, but then others disagree often with what I say. Its not a personal battle for power or popularity that brings us here, but rather to challenge, and encourage each other to learn to make analytical judgments based on our interpretation of the facts and to expand the horizons of our limited thinking. I prefer to think that my presence here is to teach beginners by sharing my life’s experiences both success and failures, of which I have a great many more than most of you. I love to win an argument, Fred, sure it is an ego boost, and a power trip too. But there is something I love even more. That is to learn something new. It can be to learn about something that was heretofor beyond my knowledge or experience OR it can also be to learn wherein lie the mistakes and errors of my facts or my own thinking. I would much rather be proven wrong and learn something helpful, that might increase my profits, than to be right and learn nothing.

I am truly sadened, and regret that I have so greatly failed in this task, as to leave you or anyone else auditing this site with the impression that you need to use an alias to debate issues with me or that you fear that I will try to build myself up at the expense of tearing you down, or to try to diminish your contributions to this fine forum.

Fred, you have my sincerest apology and my gratitude for bring this to my attention. I AM listening. I will rexamine the tone and content of my future posts with your comments in mind.

I have tried, what I thought was my level best to add a little humor and fun to my posts and to make things interesting with a number of ‘remarks’ from time to time but my motive was to help make this an enjoyable site where EVERYONE could feel welcome and SAFE from undeserved personal attack, harrasment or ridicule just for having a different opinion or point of view. To this end I have openly identified my self, even including my full name, home town, e-mail address and personal phone number so that everything would be open and above board. I have offered my services as personal mentor to anyone who wishes to contact me, and all without charge. Your post saddens me but I would rather hear it than not, to be sure I do not continue offend or hurt others.

I hope you will judge me as an individual and not part of any other group or together with others. Life is an individual responsibility and I accept full responsibility for my own actions, but I ask that I not be held accountable for the actions of others.

Regards, doc

Re: real truth! - Posted by Gary -TX

Posted by Gary -TX on June 14, 2002 at 21:35:16:

Sir,
I really appreicate your concerns but the homes I deal in with 1500.00 down and payments for 6 months I will have all my money back. I can then pay a man to paint and put carpet back in the thing, get another down payment and will be ahead. Now if I own the park they wouldn’t get behind own the lot rent. I would evict then before it gets to high. Instead of running background checks only, maybe you need to check some references where they been before.

Everyone is going to get bad tenants, thats life. But for you with 12 years experience to come on here and say Lonnie deals are not what you read about, you need someone to run your park for you. You might save some time and money on the long run.

No panacea but a panoply of possibilities. - Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA

Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA on June 16, 2002 at 11:29:59:

John, I can’t possiblly imagine a better topic for a new thread, that has real possibilities of revolutionizinng the way we do business. I hope others will stop and rack their brains a little. If a couple dozen posters just submit one idea each, it would completely change the way many of us do Lonnie deals, to the benefit of all.

I have done many mobile home deals over the past 25 or so years. A number of them stand out in whats left of my memory. Your Querry brings a few back into clearer focus.

As Chuck or someone else recently noted, older buyers in senior parks are very much more likely to pay all cash. Let’s extend this train of though and ask, what if we could find a way to zero in on finding senior buyers, no matter where our mobiles were located? Then logically we might also be discovering a new avenue for finding all cash buyers. Maybe we could go from Baltic Ave to Boardwalk in one roll.

Well where could we find these folks all grouped together? If birds of a feather flock to nice weather, then in addition to just senior parks how about those lucky few who operate in the southern snow-bird states? I had never thought about this before but I bet the Florida Lonnie dealers see more cash than the rest of us put together. Sometimes when one partner dies, the remaining one, usually the wife, needs to reduce her standard and cost of living to fit a new and often diminished budget. I wonder if ads that said, “Help Jimmy Carter…trade your house equity for a free and clear mobile home and reduce your cost of living to peanuts”, would appeal to any folks in this category? Surely the possibilites of being cashed-out would grow exponentially this way, because of the easy liquidity of SFRs. If birds of a feather really DO flock together then why not direct ads to just the seniors flocks. Their age-mates will also be seniors. What if you sent such ads to senor parks? I know you are all thinking that they already HAVE mobile homes but I bet many of their friends do not. What about advertizing in senior citizens publications? AARP for instance? If you want to find cash you need to go where the cash is. I wonder if there are mailing lists available from mailinig list brokers?I bet they can zero right in on folks who are 55 or older, have saving acounts over $10k and are living in your county or parish. I bet there are such lists, given that this is the computer age and its so easy to make all kinds narrowly-defined lists.

I have seven more ideas on how to get all cash, gleaned from my past experiences. Every time someone else posts another idea on this thread, I will post one more of mine. Quid pro quo (that means there is no free lunch, to those of you who don’t speak French). (;

Regards, doc

No panacea but a panoply of possibilities. - Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA

Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA on June 16, 2002 at 11:20:31:

John, I can’t possiblly imagine a better topic for a new thread, that has real possibilities of revolutionizinng the way we do business. I hope others will stop and rack their brains a little. If a couple dozen posters just submit one idea each it would completely change the way many of us do Lonnie deals, to the benefit of all.

I have done many mobile home deals over the past 25 or so years. A number of them stand out in whats left of my memory. Your Querry brings a few back into clearer focus.

As Chuck or someone else recently noted, older buyers in senior parks are very much more likely to pay all cash. Let’s extend this train of though and ask, what if we could find a way to zero in on finding senior buyers, no matter where our mobiles were located? Then logically we might also be discovering a new avenue for finding all cash buyers. Maybe we could go from Baltic Ave to Boardwalk in one roll.

Well where do we find these folks kind of all grouped together? If birds of a feather flock to nice weather, then in addition to just senior parks how about those lucky few who operate in the southern snow-bird states? I had never thought about this before but I bet the Florida Lonnie dealers see more cash than the rest of us put together. Sometimes when one partner dies, the remaining one, usually the wife, needs to reduce her standard and cost of living to fit a new and sometimes diminished budget. I wonder if ads that said “Help Jimmy Carter…trade your house equity for a free and clear mobile home and reduce your living costs to peanuts” would appeal to any folks in this category. Surely the possibilites of being cashed out would grow exponentiall this way, because of the easy liquidity of SFRs. If birds of a feather really DO flock together then why not direct ads to just the seniors flocks. Their age-mates will also be seniors. What if you sent such ads to senor parks? I know you are thinking that they alreay HAVE mobile homes but I bet many of their friends do not. What about advertizing in senior citizens publications? AARP for instance? If you want cash you need to go where the cash is. I wonder if there are mailing lists available from mailinig list brokers? They can zero right in on folks who are 55 or older, have saving acounts over $10k and are living in your county or parish. I bet there are such lists, given that this is the computer age and its so easy to make such narrowly-defined lists.

I have seven more ideas on how to get all cash, gleaned from my past experiences. Every time someone else posts another idea on this thread, I will post one more of mine. Quid pro quo (that means there is no free lunch, to those of you who don’t speak French). (;

Regards, doc

Funny thing about L-deals John… - Posted by Chris (TX)

Posted by Chris (TX) on June 16, 2002 at 09:57:30:

… is the less you pay for the home the more money you make. I don’t mean just profit spread here… I’m talking about “value” of the home. In other words… the older, slightly beat up homes, that you can buy (through good negotiation skills dealing with a truly motivated seller) for $500 to $1,000 are the ones you can double or triple your money on… for cash. That’s simply because more people have or have access to $1,000 to even $5,000 to pay cash for your home. If you have to sell much over $5,000, then people have to seek out financing/lenders.

Btw… I hate doing rehab so I look for the “slightly beat up homes” that don’t need much, if anything at all… and generally I sell them “as is” even then, instead of doing any fixing/touch up. If you get into the really trashed properties, the ones that need more work… you’ll make even more profit than I do.

To help you see better exactly what I’m doing here John, here’s one example for you… the most profitable recent deal for me was a 12’ x 55’ with no title, and no clue the age of it… no vin # could be found anywhere… the tongue was not the original either so Helen’s magic formula would not have even helped us… lol. (How many strikes did this home have against it? Can you count them?) Anyway, it was in fair shape, but needed cosmetic work. I think it was around a late '70’s to early '80’s model (metal siding). I bought it for $600.00… and sold it 7 days after my ad came out… for $1,500.00 cash. Both the seller and the buyer were thanking me profusely for “helping them out”… ah… now this is the life!

Just something for you to think about ;). If you have more questions, I may be able to answer them for you, but I certainly don’t know everything, regardless, feel free to email me anytime John and I’ll be happy to share my thoughts and experiences.

Best regards,
Chris

take you up on that offer!! - Posted by bob

Posted by bob on January 17, 2003 at 15:51:34:

what a wonderful thing to do ? offer to mentor me for free…dont mean to sound like a smart ass…but the thought is rumbling…bouncing around in my head…that maybe we could have a live conference call…or chat room deal …of some arena to allow us newbies to the site to 'catch up ’ with the rest of yall…any suggestions?

At least a miscellany, if not a panoply - Posted by Lucas (MI)

Posted by Lucas (MI) on June 22, 2002 at 09:20:27:

These aren’t things I have tried (yet!), so if they are impractical I leave it up to the more experienced mobile-mongers to point out why. I’m just trying to do a little brainstorming. This thread looked too good for me to let it die out.

What about companies that must relocate people or find temporary housing for them? Sometimes a person gets a transfer order from the company he is working for and must move to follow his job. Obviously this creates a motivated buyer that an astute mobile home investor can deal with, but what if there was a way to get in on the other end of the deal?

If a person could contact the companies, he might be able to arrange for workers who were transferred to his area to be directed to him as a source for affordable housing. These people would obviously be employed and that, along with them having just sold their prior residences to move, would seem to make it a reasonable chance that some of them would have cash.

What about people who, due to some misfortune, require long-term temporary housing? If someone loses his house through fire, flood, etc, he has to go somewhere. There may, as in some communities, be a collection taken up for this person, or his insurance might pay him, or he might have sufficient cash to purchase a mobile on his own. If you have a way to hear about these events and contact the relevant groups some opportunity might be found here.

This isn’t a way to get cash up-front, but it came to me while I wrote the previous paragraph: If you’re feeling really generous, you could lend or donate a cheap mobile home to a family who just lost a home in some unfortunate manner. While this isn’t a “deal” and won’t really get you lots of money by itself, it could be some of the best advertising you’ll ever get. (And some of the cheapest, if you do some good trading or get the mobile home for free.)

The word of mouth generated by it could be tremendous. Maybe you’d even get interviewed for a TV spot or a news paper. In smaller towns, anything associated with a big fire or something of that nature usually gets at least some attention. Mobile home donator being interviewed: “Yes, here at XYZ Mobile we believe in supporting the community…”

Getting back to the cash thing, it might be useful to look for a way to get involved with information networks for people building their own houses. The situation of someone selling a mobile home because he was living in it while he built his house and no longer needs it (and doesn’t want it cluttering up his yard) has been discussed, but I haven’t seen anyone suggest going at it from the other direction.

Aside from buying the mobile homes when people are done with them, don’t we want to be the people who sell owner-builders their temporary housing to begin with? These people obviously have money (borrowed or otherwise, we don’t care, it’s all green when it comes to us), because if they didn’t have money they wouldn’t be building their own houses!

It seems to me that it would be good strategy for a person to find the local sources of information that owner-builders in his area turn to and get himself noticed in those circles. Perhaps a person could pay referral fees to, or make other mutually beneficial arrangements with, people in the building trade. An agreement with someone who provides empty lots for building on (supposing that person isn’t you…) could prove very useful if he put in a word to his customers that he knew of a source for affordable, temporary, on-site housing.

There are my ideas for the moment. Make what you will of them. I’m interested in hearing opinions on this, so if anyone thinks these are feasible (or unfeasible) avenues for obtaining cash sales, or has suggestions to expand/refine them, let me know.

Lucas

Re: No panacea but a panoply of possibilities. - Posted by Max (Mo) - not CO :slight_smile:

Posted by Max (Mo) - not CO :slight_smile: on June 17, 2002 at 11:55:05:

Doc,

I’ve read an awful lot of your posts over the past couple of months, and like nearly everybody else here I’ve been able to benefit from your advice/mistakes and acted accordingly (I think). But, what Fred mentioned in his post has probably crossed my mind several times, as well as others who are looking for a way to make a couple of extra bucks. Realistically, I have to chalk it up to taking a risk and being as diligent as possible before turning over a MH to somebody I really don’t know. After all, give me a business that doesn’t have inherent risks (other than funeral homes) and I’ll give you a Big Mac without the special sauce.

So, now to my real point/issue. Given that Fred has raised some salient points, I’ve wondered whether seasoned pros like yourself, Tony, Dirk and anyone else for that matter, have come across this and what your best advice would be for those who are still working the Lonnie deals.

Thanks for your reply to this and all the other posts you offer.

Max

Some kind of love-hate relationship… - Posted by Chris (TX)

Posted by Chris (TX) on June 17, 2002 at 07:46:53:

…is what I think I have with you Doc, whenever I read posts like this one. I love it when someone helps me see something a little different than I did before, or makes me THINK…however, it’s an awful strain on my brain somedays… sigh…especially before I’ve had my coffee.

Thanks Doc.

Chris

One more possibility is for… - Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA

Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA on June 16, 2002 at 11:34:55:

…me to learn how to operate my computer.

Jerry, its all YOUR fault, you suggested that I learn how to proofread. See what happens? Scheeesh!

Re: Funny thing about L-deals John… - Posted by JHyre in Ohio

Posted by JHyre in Ohio on June 16, 2002 at 17:20:04:

Funny you mention this…it’s what I’ve been trying for the last few months, albeit with a bit of a twist. The buyers that the parks in question attract are of such low quality, they rarely come up with > $500, PERIOD! I have little enough in the homes that I can sell for $500 down and $100 a month for 2 years or so. Seems to keep defaults down, but I’ll know for sure in 18+ months! The lot rents in these trashy parks are WAY too high, so I’m expanding into other parks as insurance. I’ve traditionally not sold “as is”- attracts too many deadbeats and raises liability issues. The deadbeats do no work and leave when the house is completely uninhabitable. I increasingy prefer to sell “as is” whenever possible, but am careful to ensure that the buyers can and will make repairs, generally BEFORE they move in.

I like the way you think & thanks for sharing.

John Hyre

Re: take you up on that offer!! - Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA

Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA on January 17, 2003 at 19:14:05:

Everyone is welcome to call me at (909)-662-5851. Best to phone between 7:00 & 9:00 PM. Don’t have all the answers but I know a few good questions.

Regards, Doc

Man, you are good! - Posted by Steve W (WA)

Posted by Steve W (WA) on June 22, 2002 at 12:51:18:

Talk about creative thinking! I especially like the part about supplying to the “I’m going to build my house” crowd. I see the other end of that ALL the time. You just sparked me, dude!

I was getting a Building Permit the other day for a mover that I got free, and as I waited for my Permittress (it’s MY word, and I’m gonna use it!), the Permittress (!) at the next desk over was leaving a message on a building-my-home-and-living-in-a-mobile-while-I-do-it guy’s answering machine. I asked her how many situations regarding these MHs she runs across, and she said HUNDREDS! We got to talking; seems that MANY potential MH buyers shy away because of the expense of moving a MH, so they won’t buy them off of these homebuilders. The MHs sit and rot for years, until they physically CANNOT be moved, and must be demolished as a nuisance. Soon her boss came out, and we were all talking about how a guy (somebody I know VERY well!) could get his name out to these people before it got to that point. Obviously, the Community Development (permit) Office can’t leave a stack of my business cards out, nor could they give out my number, BUT everyone in the discussion agreed that they could refer these folks to the local Homebuilders Association, and if my business were a member, they could say, “Call the HBA; I know they have someone who works with used mobiles!”

Just a thought.

Lucas, keep the creative juices flowing!

You hate to love me or love to hate me? - Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA

Posted by Dr. Craig Whisler CA on June 17, 2002 at 09:49:25:

I know how you feel Chris. That’s exactly how I feel before I’ve had my breakfast Big Mac.

Regards, doc