Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by John

Posted by Brian Mac on January 02, 2003 at 10:17:01:

Johnboy

I completely agree with you and I believe Gatten & Co. would be all over it as far as putting up a defense if they had to. But that’s always been his point from the get go, hasn’t it?

ie. If the written laws actually mean anything, the lender has no leg to stand on and the situation will never get that far.

All arguments have been based on the risks/costs of defending a completely clean arrangement. As J. Clifton has pointed out; if the written laws actually mean anything, it’s far riskier for the lender to consider calling the loan.

Given some of the lawsuits that have come up recently, like the overweight kids suing McDonald, I don’t think it would be hard to find a defense attorney to test a settlement from a bank with deep pockets. Heck, there was a case recently where someone sued a lender for charging $50 for the credit report when it only cost $20.

Brian Mac

Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by John

Posted by John on December 25, 2002 at 15:17:03:

Simple Assumptions
450 American Street SV-31A
Simi Valley, CA 93065-6298

December 6, 2002

Subject:
Property Address:

Dear Sir or Madam:

As indicated in our previous letter, title transferred on the above referenced property without your Lender’s written consent.

Your Lender, Countrywide Home Loans, Inc., has decided to exercise its option under paragraph 9b of the Deed of Trust to declare all sums due and payable within 21 days.

Enclosed is a Payoff Statement showing the total amount due on the loan. The payoff check, in certified funds, must be received in our office no later than December 26, 2002.

If this loan is not fully satisfied on or before December 26, 2002 we will be forced to initiate foreclosure proceedings.

Thank you for your immediate attention to this critical matter.

Sincerely,

Esther Anaya
Assumption Department
Loan Administration

Enclosure

CC:

THE PACTRUST AND THE D.O.S.C. - Posted by Bill Gatten

Posted by Bill Gatten on January 06, 2003 at 17:08:30:

I swore I’d not get into these discussions anymore; however, this is one I can’t resist, since my name and my baby’s name (the PACTrust) is bounced around so freely below.

For those of you who don’t know me, I am the creator (inventor, originator) of the “PACTrust™” and its number one undying, unwavering, hard-headed and opinionated proponent and champion (and I take no prisoners).

Now, on the issue of there never having been a case where the DOSC was triggered and then thwarted by the PT. THERE ARE NO SUCH CASES!! We think this is (may be) because the PACTrust succeeds (as we claim it does) in preventing such actions on the part of the lender. If I put an electric fence around my house to keep out robbers…some would insist that I would have to show some robbers having been fried on the fence to prove that it works, despite the fact that a good robber can spot an electric fence and would probably not try to broach it in the first place.

Please understand that our trustees currently hold (and in the past have held), titles to well in excess of 100 million dollars worth of SFR properties financed by Countrywide alone. In each one of these transactions we make the payments, interact and interface with the customer service and legal departments in the various Countywide offices; and we are quite well known by them as a company who handles payments on loans on properties in land trusts wherein the borrowers are no longer making the payments.

The fact that that there has never been a challenge by a lender doesn’t mean that proof of protection isn’t available…it merely means that either: 1) we’ve just never been “caught,” or 2) the protection afforded by the process is in fact effective. We choose #2 because of the fact that we are so well known by Countywide that if they thought they could hornswaggle us they would have done so a long-long time ago.

For those detractors who still remain (in the face of successes like Jim Kennedy’s, Bud Branstetter’s, Jodi Tousignant?s, Martin Weisberg?s, Mike Roberts, etc., etc. (all major companies across the county who use our program and our documentation without our assistance): please…try to clearly understand the following once and for all:

In the PACTrust? model the property actually and honestly IS NOT SOLD! It is instead placed into the owner’s own land trust, which trust structure is fully allowable under federal law. Next, the property is leased to a “would-be” owner, who is willing to forgo ownership of the property in favor of receiving all of the benefits of ownership…without his/her name being on the title (title ownership is not necessary is you get 100% of the “Bundle of Rights” in Fee-Simple Ownership anyway).

This is not a trick or gimmick. The property REALLY is not sold! The “ownership” benefits are afforded by the Beneficiary Agreement; the occupancy and possession benefit is afforded by the Lease Agreement; and the tax benefits are afford by the IRS (IRC 163(h)4(D) in so much as any beneficiary in a land trust MUST be treated as an owner of the trust property for tax purposes (therefore, a full Net Tenant who is also a co-beneficiary in the land trust gets all the same tax treatment as he/she would IF they were owners in fact). Other documents might include Powers of ?Attorney, Trustee Direction, Collection Service Direction, Escrow Instructions, Exculpatory forms, etc.

On some of my own properties over the years, I have missed payments by 2-4 months at a time (wherein Countrywide was the lender); and I have never (nor have our clients and students) been confronted with a letter like the one which is the subject of this thread. I have received notices that foreclosure was immanent, but the laons were reinstated without a problem once brought current. Why not? Why wasn?t I foreclosed upon? Because when the lender checked the title and its condition, they did NOT see an unauthorized transfer. If they checked on the property, they saw only a lease agreement with a tenant. In none of these transactions has there been a sale or transfer of title to anyone but a bona fide land trust trustee–wholly without consideration, without a transfer basis, without a property tax increase, without reassessment, without a capital gains imposition, etc. And?without a due-on-sale violation.

I used to be offended by this cr** about my never posting anything but vague allusions and no proof for what I say (because of my having depended too heavily upon these kinds of websites for my income for a period of time, my business was severely damaged a year or so ago by certain mean-spirited nay sayers). Understand this: I can probably prove there is no Santa Clause…but I cannot prove that there IS one (because there AIN"T one to prove?get the point? You can not prove a negative).

I am once again accused here below of offering only “vague” illusions and proofs relative to the issue of the PACTrust and the Due on Sale Clause. In the past I resented those comments: now I just smile (admittedly with some annoyance), happy to be mentioned now and then (and defended by some very intelligent people who truly know what they?re doing) and go on making my living and not worrying about due-on-sale calls.

Bill Gatten

Here is the REAL issue here - Posted by Jim FL

Posted by Jim FL on December 29, 2002 at 06:53:35:

John,
Sorry to hear about your situation.
I sincerely hope you can resolve it.
I also hope you learned a thing or two, and are not blaming the problem on the overall technique of buying subject to the existing financing.

In my opinion, based on what you posted here, this is the problem, or what caused it.
You said in this post above:
“As indicated in our previous letter, title transferred on the above referenced property without your Lender’s written consent.”

Then in a followup post/response to another repsonse, you explained this further with this:
“There was a snafu with the mail, Countrywide changed their mailing address and did not notify us and two months payments did not make it to Countrywide. They called the mortgagor and the mortgagor told them all details of the transaction.”

So, bottom line was, PAYMENTS were not made, and the lender was TOLD about the transaction by the seller.
Bottom line, no offense to you, we all make mistakes, I know I sure do, we learn from them, get up, dust off and move on…anyway, bottom line, control was LOST on this deal, and now the lender is calling the loan.

Something was not done properly, and now there are circumstances to deal with.

I wish you luck with this one.

Take care and keep your head up.

Jim FL

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by John W

Posted by John W on December 27, 2002 at 15:38:58:

Please forgive my ignorance, but when putting together a subject-to deal, instead of re-titling the property and drawing the ire of the lender in the form of the dreaded due-on-sale clause, why not draft a letter of understanding between the parties that conveys title and record that. It is a legally binding document that will convey title (in CA at least) and does not trigger a transfer tax on the property as well as a revaluation of the property for property taxes. When you fianlly do refi, re-title appropriately.

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Sean

Posted by Sean on December 26, 2002 at 23:20:48:

I am sorry to hear about your problem, but I am glad to hear something bad being said about Subject To deals… I know they work, but to me the idea of getting a property without the bank holding an existing note finding out about it, is just asking for trouble. Unless of course you know for a fact you can handle that loan being called without a problem. I know many people do it with Subject To and Lease Options… and while all of these techniques are valid and used by many people… it is a very real possibility that a bank, any bank can call the mortgage when title transfer happens.

I think way to pretty/one sided picture gets painted with these techniques. I can’t blame a bank, it makes good business sense, I know if I had note tied to a property and the guy I loaned the money to had done anything that risked the property, and property was effectively being controlled by someone I never met or knew, I’d call the loan due in a second.

As I said, I am sure many people are using these techniques effectively, It just seems to me that they are portrayed almost like tinkerbell’s fairy dust in many material… magical and risk free, just think the happy little thoughts and you’ll be ok.

Best of luck with your issue.

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Mark-Chi

Posted by Mark-Chi on December 26, 2002 at 10:52:41:

This is one of the risks of Subject to’s that no one ever likes to discuss (except John Reed, who gets villified here for bringing ideas back to reality). All lenders have the right to call the loan due upon finding out title has been transferred.

Is it possible you can refinance with a new 1st mortgage? You could probably get a better interest rate, at this time, anyway. Or maybe sell for a profit sooner rather than later. You have some time to pay off the loan during the foreclosure process. Who knows? If you have the credit, maybe even Countrywide would do the refinance, to turn a potential foreclosure nightmare into a performing loan…

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by John

Posted by John on December 25, 2002 at 16:23:28:

Subject to deal - Interest Rate - 7.8

We bailed the loan out of foreclosure over two years ago (~3K). There was a snafu with the mail, Countrywide changed their mailing address and did not notify us and two months payments did not make it to Countrywide. They called the mortgagor and the mortgagor told them all details of the transaction.

Payments were and are CURRENT even though Countrywide is accelerating the loan.

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Travis (Dallas)

Posted by Travis (Dallas) on December 25, 2002 at 15:59:40:

So…What are you going to do?

Let us know how it works out, etc.

Good luck,
Travis

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by James Strange

Posted by James Strange on December 25, 2002 at 15:51:25:

“As indicated in our previous letter, title transferred on the above referenced property without your Lender’s written consent.”

Was this a subject to? L/O? Wrap?

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Patricia

Posted by Patricia on December 25, 2002 at 15:27:10:

what was the interest rate on the loan? And what is the curent interest rate? Where they wanting you to refinance with a higher rate?

What if the PacTrust had been used to do deal? - Posted by William

Posted by William on December 27, 2002 at 08:45:51:

I am far from being an expert but I wonder had the buyer of this subject-to deal had done it thru the PacTrust perhaps the forclosure problem might not have developed. First the title to the property would not have been transfered out of the seller’s name, the trust established thru this method would be in the name of the seller, the owner would be protected by federal law from Countrywide’s aggressive policies, Countrywide would have the name and phone number of the loan servicing company available thru the PacTrust (the Trustee), instead of the previous owner etc.

I certainly hope that this will be worked out. This is something that Bill Gatten who happens to be a nice, well informed person “preach” about all the time.

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by bob

Posted by bob on December 26, 2002 at 12:34:12:

Courtywide ALWAYS does this if they become aware of the change in ownership - so either get a new loan or don’t do deals with them any more!!!

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)

Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on December 25, 2002 at 17:14:38:

John--------------

This is a serious threat on their part. They will do a foreclosure on your property and sell it at foreclosure sale. This loan may have been sold to FMNA. FNMA got my property under similar circumstantces, except that I was never late with any payments.

Good InvestingRon Starr*****

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by KC Questions

Posted by KC Questions on December 25, 2002 at 16:53:32:

Did you change the mailing address and phone numbers that Countrywide had on file for this loan?

If so, shouldn’t they have been contacting you instead of the previous mortgagor when the problem showed up?

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Brad (sd)

Posted by Brad (sd) on December 26, 2002 at 19:12:32:

This is one of the main reasons I’ve heard that a lender will call the note due. Refi @ higher rate.
It seems though that many people have had this problem with Countrywide, guess its better to stay away from them!?!

Re: What if the PacTrust had been used to do deal? - Posted by Rob FL

Posted by Rob FL on December 27, 2002 at 21:37:18:

Somehow, I don’t think that Bill Gatten will come in as an “expert witness” if you try and take this lawsuit to trial. And believe me Countrywide has pretty much unlimited deep pockets to hire the best foreclosure attorneys in your state to proceed with the lawsuit.

Maybe you could hire an attorney to defend you and try to explain a PACTrust to the judge. Or you could simply hand the judge/jury Bill Gatten’s book and tell them that this explains why what you did doesn’t violate the due-on-sale clause. But, I seriously doubt it.

Odds are even if you can show the judge why PACTrust doesn’t violate the due-on-sale clause, the judge is still going look at your actual intent.

Re: What if the PacTrust had been used to do deal? - Posted by Eric - GA

Posted by Eric - GA on December 27, 2002 at 09:45:50:

Look here for what happened with countrywide in a trust deal.

http://www.creonline.com/wwwboard/messages/arc_2002/arc_88/88936.html

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Al M

Posted by Al M on December 27, 2002 at 24:48:28:

So how did they or do they become aware of the transfer? Was it in a Land Trust?

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Dee-Texas

Posted by Dee-Texas on December 25, 2002 at 19:22:07:

Hello Ron,
You posted:
“FNMA got my property under similar circumstantces, except that I was never late with any payments.”
Did you let it go back?
How did you handle this? In other words The rest of the story.
Thank you for all of your posts. I learn and enjoy them.
Great $uccess,
Dee-Texas