Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by John

You are so wrong… - Posted by J. Clifton

Posted by J. Clifton on December 28, 2002 at 21:32:47:

If this were a (correctly drafted) PacTrust case, then the burden should be on the lender to justify its action. The DOS has exceptions; those exceptions place limits on the discretion of lenders to call a loan due, and supercedes their requirements for ‘written consent.’ Repeat: lenders either have limits in this area, or they do not. The law specifies those limits. There is no intent to violate the DOS with the PacTrust, as it is structured to precisely conform with the trust exception stated in the law that explicitly prohibits the lender from calling the loan due. If actual intent is examined, it should be the lender’s, for violating the law by calling the loan in that case. Perhaps this explains why there is a lack of an actual case history showing DOS actions successfully being brought on PacTrusts.

You are so right… - Posted by Hal Roark

Posted by Hal Roark on December 28, 2002 at 12:42:40:

Mr. PacTrust investor, imho, can send Countrywide (insert: any lender) any number of docs; they will just laugh all the way to the sheriff’s auction.

Hal

Re: What if the PacTrust had been used to do deal? - Posted by Jim Kennedy - Houston, TX

Posted by Jim Kennedy - Houston, TX on December 27, 2002 at 18:51:03:

Eric,

In the thread you referenced as well as in the case at hand, the investor didn’t use a PACTrust? where the original borrower would have remained a beneficiary of the trust. Instead, the original borrower apparently assigned 100% of his beneficial interest, thereby losing the protection afforded by the Garn-St. Germain Act, aka the Federal Depository Institutions Act of 1982. You can read the pertinent clauses at USC, Title 12, Chapter 13, §1701j-3 (d)(8). To access a copy, go to 12 U.S. Code § 1701j–3 - Preemption of due-on-sale prohibitions | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

Best of Success!!

Jim Kennedy,
Houston, TX

Re: What if the PacTrust had been used to do deal? - Posted by Marques T. Wood

Posted by Marques T. Wood on December 27, 2002 at 14:57:37:

Followed the link to the previous thread but almost all the messages are not there anymore. Help anyone?

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by guy

Posted by guy on December 27, 2002 at 10:17:06:

I think they have spies!!!

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)

Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on December 26, 2002 at 11:36:21:

Dee–(TX)-----------------

I stopped them from the sale by deeding the property into a partnership name, then putting the partnership into bankruptcy. I did not want to sell the property. I though I could work something out. They were not interested in working something out. Later, their foreclose sales line said that the sale was “cancelled.” Follish me to rely on that source. They soon went to sale and I lost the property to FNMA. They subsequently resold the property, probably for a very nice profit.

I have discovered that a little arrogance can go a long way in hurting one. Take the threats seriously, take effective action.

Good Investing**********Ron Starr**************

Hold on… - Posted by Rob FL

Posted by Rob FL on December 29, 2002 at 20:38:44:

Remember in foreclosure lawsuits, the lender is a “plaintiff” and the borrower is a “defendant”. The lender files a lawsuit to foreclose or notifies a trustee to start foreclosure, and the borrower has to “defend” himself. (This is civil not criminal law, so it’s not innocent until proven guilty.) The lender most likely has a top notch law firm (who probably does hundreds if not thousands of foreclosures every year – in Florida we call these firms “foreclosure mills” because of the volume they do.) The borrower/defendant is an investor who probably has a handful of properties at best and may not even be able to afford the retainer for an attorney (especially an attorney who understands what a PACtrust is).

The lender’s attorney is going to say, “Your honor, here is a recorded deed transfering title, and the original borrower is nowhere to be found (and even if you could find them, they probably now think you are a total scam artist because of the pending foreclosure). The defendant who is here today is not the person we loaned the money to. He is an investor who bought the property from the original borrower via a trust and now claims that because of the way the trust is worded that we can’t foreclose.” Your attorney or you is going to have to explain to the judge why a PACtrust doesn’t violate the DOS clause. Maybe you can and maybe you can’t convince the judge/jury – don’t expect them to read the PACTrust book either. In the meantime, you’re defending a very marginal lawsuit against a lender with almost unlimited resources and you are paying attorneys fees, court costs, etc. to defend a lawsuit which even if you win, you know that the lender will appeal the decision.

As for case history, I’ve never seen anyone post the case # of any case anywhere in the country that specifically addresses the issue of a PACtrust not violating the DOS. I’ve heard lots of vague references here and there. If you know of anything, I’d love to read it. It will make a believer out of me for sure. Please find and post on this website a foreclosure case that specifically deals with a DOS violation (not a default for non-payment) where a PACTrust was successfully defended.

I am a believer in subject-to purchases, but I am aware of the risks involved.

They’re still there, you just . . . - Posted by Jim Kennedy - Houston, TX

Posted by Jim Kennedy - Houston, TX on December 27, 2002 at 15:51:56:

Marques,

The messages are still there, you just have to know how to access them. Here’s an explanation and a very simple solution.

Both active messages and archived messages seem to adhere to a certain pattern. Take a look at the URL for this message. It starts with http://www.creonline.com/wwwboard/messages/, followed by the number of the post (assigned in sequential order), and ending with “.html”. When a message gets moved to the archives, evidently the URL gets changed. In the case of archived messages, they still start with http://www.creonline.com/wwwboard/messages/, but then the change occurs. Apparently, next comes the year of the original post (in this case /arc_2002/), followed by “/arc_xx/”, where xx equals the first two digits of the original post. If the number of the original post was 88936, then the archived post would read /arc_88/, and then the full number of the original post (88936), and ending with “.html”.

So, if the original URL was:

http://www.creonline.com/wwwboard/messages/88936.html

the archived URL will be:

http://www.creonline.com/wwwboard/messages/arc_2002/arc_88/88936.html

This is useful information to know since some of the archived threads contain posts with different first two digits. For an example of this, go to the beginning of the thread that Zdawg started at:

http://www.creonline.com/wwwboard/messages/arc_2002/arc_88/88936.html

If you try to click through the responses starting at the bottom of the page for the oldest responses, you can read the responses by ScottE at 10:19:33 on 04/02/02, by T_Mac at 10:47:16, by Bud Branstetter at 10:54:36. When you try to click through the responses to Bud’s post, you do fine reading Steve’s post at 11:09:24 and Tom (GA)'s post at 14:26:12. But when you get to William Bronchick’s post at 18:54:21, it tells you that the page cannot be found. You have to manually change the address to read “/arc_89/” instead of “/arc_88/” because the message number is “89119”.

BTW, the formatting I’ve just described seems to apply only to the current archives (January 2002 and after) and last year’s archives (Jan01-Dec01). Prior years conform to a slightly different format.

I hope I’ve explained this clearly. I’m no computer expert and if there’s an easier solution I’d like to know.

Hope this helps.

Best of Success!!

Jim Kennedy,
Houston, TX

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Ben (NJ)

Posted by Ben (NJ) on December 26, 2002 at 15:58:08:

Ron, if the the owner (your partnership) was in BK, how did the sale proceed? Did they get the automatic stay lifted?

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Tony-VA

Posted by Tony-VA on December 26, 2002 at 14:31:17:

Am I following this thread correctly?

Yours was a subject-to deal that was caught and the bank called the due on sale. Since you did not want to sell, you deeded the property to the LP and had it declare bankruptcy. The bank eventually foreclosed and sold the home.

If this was a subject-to deal, what about the sellers who were still liable for the note? You lost the profit of the home but they took a hit here as well did they not?

Now I am by no means a bleeding heart for Sellers who get themselves in over their heads but let’s face it, not all of these motivating factors are the seller’s own doing. As an investor we are making a promise to solve their problem. Nowadays, some of those who fail to fulfill that promise are making headlines and jail cots. From reading some of your posts in the past, it seems unlike you to take a “seller be dam’d” approach to call a bank’s bluff.

Ron I respect your posts and am not pointing fingers by any means, I am just trying to follow the logic, the process and the outcome.

Re: Hold on… - Posted by J.Clifton

Posted by J.Clifton on December 29, 2002 at 23:26:52:

The defending attorney can simply point to the law itself, not a PacTrust book, and point out the basic fact that the borrower cannot ‘violate the DOS clause’ in the first place, since the clause concerns restrictions on the LENDER. How can there be intent to ‘violate,’ if there is no ability to so violate? ONLY THE LENDER can “violate” the DOS clause, by ignoring the exceptional cases where they are prohibited from calling a loan—whereas the borrower or buyer can only try to circumvent providing the lender knowledge of a transfer of title. [And in many PacTrusts (foreclosures), the lender actually IS informed.] Thus, it is a violation of DOS for the BANK to be IGNORING the clause’s conditions, not when the buyer is INVOKING it and CONFORMING to its conditions.

Third time, the law either restricts the LENDER from calling the loan in some cases, or it doesn’t. Are you suggesting that their power to call a loan due is unlimited, despite the language of the clause, simply due to their financial resources? Then we’re all dead anyway, on this and most other ‘investor vs. institution’ fronts. Of course, as you say, if the facts don’t matter, AND logic doesn’t matter, AND what the law says doesn’t matter, AND proving intent doesn’t matter to a judge, then the high priced lawyer can still win. Perhaps you should ask Mr. Gatten for legal opinion letters he has on the PacTrust, in lieu of case history. I still maintain it is simpler to support and proceed with what directly conforms to experience, instead of conjuring complex potential phantoms that do NOT conform. Accept the ACTUAL history of safety of something, versus vexing over the THEORY of its future problems, for which there is no track record.

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)

Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on December 26, 2002 at 21:18:23:

Ben–(NJ)----------------

There were actually two bankruptcy filings. The first one got dismissed because I was too late showing up for the hearing. Then, apparently the second one was not proper, as it was too soon after the first one. Anyway, I did file the second one and sent notice to CountryWide. They ignored it and did the sale anyway. I am assuming what they did was legal.

Good Investing*Ron Starr

Corrected response - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)

Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on December 26, 2002 at 21:15:14:

Tony–(VA)----------------

Please understand that I live in CA. Here in CA, when a person is no longer the owner of a property, they no longer have an obligation to pay on the note secured by that property. I understand that things are different in other states, where sellers of property may still have personal liability on a note.

I tried to work with my sellers to make something happen that would have stopped the foreclosure. However, they hired a attorney who had the attitude that I had tried to do so something to the sellers/former owners. The attorney was a very difficult person with whom to try to reason. I am verbal, but it is sometimes impossible to work with some people. Or close to it. Certainly very difficult.

I think that the worse that can happen to the sellers is that they may have to explain the foreclosure on their credit records should they apply for credit somewhere. They can show that they sold the house several months before the foreclosure. They can show that Ronald Starr was the owner at the time of the foreclosure.

I think that I treated the sellers honorably. I have no shame about that part of it.

Good InvestingRon Starr*

Re: Beware Countrywide - Letter We Received - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)

Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on December 26, 2002 at 21:14:31:

Tony–(VA)----------------

Please understand that I live in CA. Here in CA, when a person is no longer the owner of a property, they no longer have an obligation to pay on the note secured by that party. I understand that things are different in other states, where sellers of property may still have personal liability on a note.

I tried to work with my sellers to make something happen that would have stopped the foreclosure. However, they hired a attorney who had the attitude that I had tried to do so something to the sellers/former owners. The attorney was a very difficult person with whom to try to reason. I am verbal, but it is sometimes impossible to work with some people. Or close to it. Certainly very difficult.

I think that the worse that can happen to the sellers is that they may have to explain the foreclosure on their credit records should they apply for credit somewhere. They can show that they sold the house several months before the foreclosure. They can show that Ronald Starr was the owner at the time of the foreclosure.

I think that I treated the sellers honorably. I have no shame about that part of it.

Good InvestingRon Starr*

Re: Hold on… - Posted by Rob FL

Posted by Rob FL on December 30, 2002 at 21:29:50:

What it all boils down to is that it won’t be worth it financially to even defend a lawsuit of this type unless there is substantial equity in the property. Otherwise it will be throwing good money after bad. Very seldom do homeowners with significant equity deed over their property subject-to or PACTrust or whatever.

The only thin thread that keeps a PACTrust from being a DOS violation is that the original borrower remains on as a trust beneficiary (along with other persons). A partial beneficial interest in the trust has been transferred to a 3rd party, and Bill Gatten claims that this doesn’t violate the DOS but I’m skeptical of that. This probably does violate the DOS. I wouldn’t expect the original borrower to be supporting you in this matter.

As for case references, Bill Gatten has been challenged for years on this website and others to produce a court case where a PACTrust was successfully defended. All he ever posts are vague references that don’t directly apply. I’ve read his 150+ page book and it doesn’t contain any case references in it either.

Re: Corrected response - Posted by Tony-VA

Posted by Tony-VA on December 27, 2002 at 07:22:38:

Ron,

Thanks for filling in the blanks on this deal gone sour. There was a void there that did not make sense from the first post and seemed out of character for you.

I can appreciate that your efforts were thwarted by the seller and their attorney, but the point that was missing was that you did make the efforts to solve the deal in the best interest of everyone.

Thanks,

Tony-VA

oh that’s rich - Posted by Abe Froman

Posted by Abe Froman on December 26, 2002 at 21:19:48:

yeah no big deal at all for the sellers. I mean what’s a little thing like a “FORECLOSURE”!!! on someones credit report.
Gee what a guy.
Abe

Re: Hold on… - Posted by JohnBoy

Posted by JohnBoy on January 02, 2003 at 10:33:47:

BTW,

You don’t need any case references where a PACTrust was successfully defended. What you need is a case reference where a PACTrust was UNsuccessfully defended to show that it does violate a DOSC. Without a case reference that shows a PACTrust was defeated in court over a DOSC, then the need for a case that shows it was successfully defeat is moot! If there is no law or case reference to show it IS illegal or in violation of a law, then it IS LEGAL, period!

So how would a PACTrust violate the DOSC? Based on Gatten’s arguments and the way the law reads vs. the way a PACTrust is structured, it seems that it doesn’t violate the DOSC. That would be worth defending a case should one ever end up in court over the DOSC.

Think about.

In a PACTrust their is NO loan assumption. The loan remains SOLELY in the sellers name. The buyer never agrees to make the payments to the LENDER or makes any promises to the LENDER. Only promises to the SELLER. That is not a loan assumption. Someone else sending in the payments on behalf of the borrower in itself is NOT a loan assumption. If you were to write out a check to help out grandma by making her mortgage payments for her that is NOT a loan assumption. No where does the law say a third party is prohibited from making someone elses mortgage payments for them!

Federal Law PROHIBITS a lender from calling a loan due when the owner of the property transfers title into a land trust where the borrower remains “A” beneficiary of the trust. No where does the law say anyone else can’t be a beneficiary in ADDITION to the borrower. It states only that the borrower must remain “A” beneficiary of the trust.

Title NEVER transfers to another INDIVIDUAL. Title only transfers to a TRUST. Once title is transferred to a TRUST, it is the TRUST that legally owns the property. No individual person owns the property. Beneficiary(s) of the TRUST do not own the property. The TRUST itself owns the property.

Federal Law allows you to give a leasehold interest in the property as long as the lease is for less than 3 years and does not contain an option to buy. The PACTrust does NOT allow for any options to buy. It only allows the TENANT, under a triple net lease, the FIRST RIGHT OF REFUSAL TO BUY by a certain date. A first right of refusal is not an OPTION TO BUY. A first right of refusal to buy is not prohibited under the Federal Law. Only an OPTION TO BUY.

Here what the law says:

Section 1701j-3. Preemption of due-on-sale prohibitions

(d) Exemption of specified transfers or dispositions
With respect to a real property loan secured by a lien on
residential real property containing less than five dwelling units,
including a lien on the stock allocated to a dwelling unit in a
cooperative housing corporation, or on a residential manufactured
home, a lender may not exercise its option pursuant to a
due-on-sale clause upon -

(4) the granting of a leasehold interest of three years or less
not containing an option to purchase;

(8) a transfer into an inter vivos trust in which the borrower
is and remains a beneficiary and which does not relate to a
transfer of rights of occupancy in the property; or

Based on the way this law reads, the way a PACTrust is structured would NOT violate the DOSC.

So the issue here isn’t, provide me with a case reference where the PACTrust was successful in court defending itself over a DOSC. The issue here is, show me a case where the PACTrust was UNseccessful in defending itself in court over a DOSC???

If there is NO case to show where a PACTrust was UNsuccessful defending itself in court over a DOSC, then just PERHAPS it means the reason is because the PACTrust does NOT violate a DOSC? Yes? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it’s just because there hasn’t been a lender willing to take it to court. But it would SEEM to me that with the THOUSANDS of PACTrusts that Gatten claims to have done over the past umteen years that there would have been at least ONE case where a lender went to court attempting to inforce it’s rights under the DOSC! But just MAYBE this hasn’t happened yet because no lender has felt they could win going to court??? Who knows! But based on the number of years the PACTrust has been being successfully used and out of all the THOUSANDS of PACTrusts that have been done, that in itself is enough to make one think that the PACTrust would provide you with the safest method to use buying property subject to the exisiting mortgage. Based on the history of using a PACTrust to date, this would also be worth defending in court at any cost regardless of what the value of the particular property is worth just to win the case and set a precedence that the PACTrust does NOT violate a DOSC! At least that is just my opinion.

Re: Hold on… - Posted by JohnBoy

Posted by JohnBoy on December 31, 2002 at 20:16:13:

Actually, in my opinion, it WOULD be worth it financially to defend a case of this type regardless of any equity in the property. It’s not just about that ONE property. It would be about getting a favorable ruling to establish case law that would support these types of deals where you can continue to do them. While it may get costly over ONE deal, it would make you a lot more in the future over the long run. It would be like investing in your future! So while that one deal may turn into a loss, it could create many more profitable deals in the future which would more than make up for the cost of that one case.

I’m guessing there’s about a zillion more… - Posted by BR

Posted by BR on December 27, 2002 at 18:29:01:

foreclosures due to overzealous realtors assuring the homeowner that they can sell their home before the bad men take it away, than RE Investors who fail to perform. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen it happen. IMO homes in foreclosure should be off limits to listing agents. JustMyOpinion… AND I’M A REALTOR!