Posted by Ed Copp (OH) on May 05, 2000 at 15:18:26:
Bill,
Nothing to be sorry about Scott does have a point, and so do you. Now about having the prospective purchaser go along to present the offer, nothing wrong with that either in my opinion. Unfortunately it is often the prospective buyer who can’t shut up long enough to let the seller accept the offer, not always.
A way to end this delima, from the brokers point of view is to operate without listings at all. Just take options or buy outright the properties that the broker intends to sell. This would leave the non-motivated sellers for the
realtors,
realatators,
and so on, the unsellable would just end up in the MLS pretty much as it is now…ED
I have had two different occasions when negotiations broke down using a realtor. In both cases I went around the realtor and was able to close the deal. I did NOT try weaseling the realtor out of their commission. The first time I didn’t tell the realtor before-hand. When she found out, she was pretty upset. Her irritation quickly subsided when I told her I came to an agreement with the seller and we closed the deal. The second time, with a different realtor, I told him I was contacting the seller. He tried unsuccessfully to convince me otherwise, but in the end he ended up with a commission he wouldn’t have had. No one cares about your deal more than you do.
I just did it last week, in that I completely circumvented the RE agent and went directly to the seller. I didn’t call the seller, I showed up on their door step. It worked! Plus I got the deal I wanted. However, in my case, I had tried to use the RE agent first and she completely refused to present my offer. So, I had no other choice. I agree with Piper, use the RE agent first but don’t let that stop you if they refuse to present your offer. Why did the sellers let me in when I showed up on their doorstep? Simple, I held up my offer sheet and told them that I desperately wanted to pay their FULL ASKING PRICE for the property but that their agent wouldn’t present it. I didn’t tell them about the terms of my offer until I was in the house, sitting down and talking to them. It worked for me and I’ll do it again if I run into an uncooperative agent again.
Hard to say just exactly what your intent here is?.but if your idea is to actively work all the listed houses directly with the seller?..I wouldn?t do it.
Let?s face it?most people want exactly what the Realtors offer?.a cash deal, or cash to a new loan. They don?t want your creative deals, regardless of how attractive you might believe them to be. So where you end up by actively soliciting large numbers of listed sellers is to inalienate the Realtor community. Personally, that wouldn?t be my goal. It?s a small world out there?.word gets around. I?d rather have a reputation as a dealmaker, a guy who can do a deal that perhaps the Realtors turn to when they have a seller who needs your deal. But rest assured, if you get the reputation as one who is consistently and on a large scale going behind their backs, you won?t be getting any calls, or any help. Sometimes the Realtor community can be very helpful to an investor.
Your focus needs to be on motivated sellers?.not sellers at large. Some of those motivated sellers might be amongst those who have their property listed. If so, try to work through the Realtor. If that doesn?t work, perhaps in that particular case a direct conversation with the seller would be in order. But again, I would not suggest this as an ongoing and regular part of your business. And in no case should you be attempting to cut the Realtor out of his commission. It?s something you need to take into account when you structure your deal, even if the Realtor isn?t present. I do deals every year that are brought to me by Realtors, because they are tough deals with motivated sellers?.deals that the Realtor doesn?t think he can do conventionally.
And by the way, most of the deals out there are not in the MLS. They are gone long before they ever hit the MLS.
You seem to think that the only properties available are those listed with REALTORS or a small bit of FSBOs.
You are missing a whole other market. The one’s that aren’t advertised for sale at all that nobody knows about. What about expired listings, vacant houses, run-down houses, tired landlords, pre-foreclosures, divorce, probate, etc. Get the drift?
If you talk with the agent and are concerned that your offer may not be presented well by the agent, then you can request to be present when the offer is submitted.
If you get a lot of resistance from the agent about this, then go ahead and contact the seller directly. Keep in mind though, that the agent will still be entitled to a commission of some type. You would need to look at the listing agreement to see exactly how much.
I agree with Ed. Trying an end run around a realtor on a listed property will defintely be considered a foul. However, on the other hand, I understand your concern about the listing agent being a problem in developing a creative solution. Most agents are pre-trained to do it the conventional way. That is why I never pursue listed properties unless I’m making an all cash offer, which is rare. Instead try focusing on sellers before they list with an agent, or focus on properties that are expired listings. The best deals are those that have not yet been exposed to the market.
Re: Would this make the real estate agent mad? - Posted by Ed Copp (OH)
Posted by Ed Copp (OH) on May 05, 2000 at 11:30:39:
I love the opening question… Now what do you think? Why don’t you just call the real estate agent and ask them? As a broker myself, I learned not to do anything as a result of anger. I also learned a long time ago how to protect myself from the antics that you are asking about.
In the last line of your P.S. you mention working the listings, without having your intentions destroyed. I do not know just what your intentions are here. I can guess but I choose not to. I do know what a listing is: it is the property of the broker involved, so
therefor you do not have a right to “work it”. The listing usually obligates the seller to pay a commission to the broker. So you might be thinking about conspiring with the seller to cheat the broker out of the commission. I don’t know. Would you know the property was even for sale if it was not for the involvement of the broker. You carefully do not state what your intentions are so how can I know?
Now if you want to gain benefits from the listing, you might want to consider learning to work with the real estate agent. This could even lead to more positive business in the future (for you). You might learn to negotiate. Immigane that for a soultion (win-win).
Now IF you try to get me for my commission, I might choose to let you (once), but most likely not. But the second time around, be prepared to be lunch…ED
I am in the same situation, my deal is dead, but the realtor got mad when I asked to see the seller and he told me “no way - it will not happen” Arrogant little twerp so of course now, I am determined to make it work - I want to show him but, how can I find the seller, where do I look
Of course, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge and wisdom, but I would like to follow your thought and pick your brain re:your post.
You posted: “I do deals every year that are brought to me by Realtors, because they are tough deals with motivated sellers?.deals that the Realtor doesn?t think he can do conventionally”
Why don’t they think that they can get them done conventionally when the seller is motivated? Not enough room for commission? Too short time frame-wise? Too many repairs needed?
I have always been in agreement that the agent should get his commission, but if he is not doing his job to potentially get a deal done, even under creative means, then he is not only doing a disservice to him/herself (and broker), but, more importantly to the client. Don’t you agree?
This guy said he don’t have many FSBOs in his area! I really think he needs to get out of the house and look around. There are more than one can handle in any given area. I think he has a vengence against realtors and brokers. If he keeps up his shenanigans he may very well be lunch someday soon!
Ed, if you are one of the RARE real estate agents that ‘works’ with investors in ways other than traditional make offer, get a loan (or pay cash), and close, then great. But based on your scalding followup of Mr. Kynett’s post, I would gather that you have no interest in presenting creative financing offers to your listing clients (unless, of course, it is exclusively beneficial to you).
I think what Mr. Kynett was trying to say was that he did not want some close-minded agent presenting his creative offer in a less than favorable light. Surely even you can see that.
This typical reaction from real estate agents is EXACTLY why I either request that I be present when the offer is submitted to the seller or (if the agent refuses/waffles)I contact the seller directly.
A real estate agent’s job is to bring a buyer and seller together not act as the ultimate gatekeeper for every offer that is less than full listing price from a pre-approved buyer.
Hi Lib,
there are two easy ways to find a sellers address, but that may not solve your problem. call any local title co. and ask for customer service. give 'em the house address, they will look up the mailing address. you can also do this online at octitle.com. using the “online profile” button. you will first be asked to sign up with them which, by the way is free, and they have never bugged me with ads, etc.
really though, why won’t the agent coop? can you use your own agent to deal with their agent? i am curious as to what the agent objects to. we sometimes just have to chase 2 or 3 deals at a time to get any accepted.
time is a great motivater. a fresh listing turns down more offers that one getting “long in the tooth”.
alternately, try this end-run that includes the agent. make your offer more to their liking, subject to something, like an inspection. get a little further into the fold. meet them, know them, or at least thru the agent they will now know “of you”. then counter your offer after you get a closer look… work it slowly to something more to your liking. they may turn it down today, and then ask the agent to go find you a month from now… "where is that nice lady with her big bag of money and crazy offer…?
Re: It depends…how do you find the seller - Posted by Jim (Alaska)
Posted by Jim (Alaska) on May 06, 2000 at 24:32:25:
Lib,
I don’t know how things work where you are, but here I can access the tax roll online and find the mailing and billing address of any property that taxes are paid on. Even if the info is not online you should be able to access it from whatever entity does the property tax in your area. Another way to go would be to use a buyers agent, this works for me and costs nothing, the seller pays the commission, and many times a buyers agent does not have an “agenda” and you can work with them.
The most common reasons that a realtor has brought me a deal is because of 1) extensive repairs 2) overencumbered 3) no room for commission (fits in with reason #2). Once in a while I’ve had deals that had very little time…but this reason is down the list. Another reason at times is the location, generally coupled with repairs.
And yes, at times I think that Realtors do a disservice to their clients. The attitude at times is that they make decisions for the client without consulting the client…as if they were personally on the deed.
But whether that is the case or not…the Realtor is contractually due a commission upon sale unless the Seller and Broker make other arrangements. I have no problem with the idea of contacting the seller directly if the Realtor either refuses to present the offer, or is very uncooperative in general where you have reason to believe the seller would be interested in your deal. At the same time, however, I would be reluctant to try to interfere with the contractual agreement for the commission. I might attempt to bring the Realtor into a basic agreement with the seller, in order to negotiate a different payment arrangement for the commission, a lower commission, or some other basic setup. But again, I wouldn’t attempt to ignore the issue, or counsel the seller to attempt to violate the agreement. Most listing agreements as you may know contain a clause which obligates the Seller to refer buyers to the Realtor. Most Realtors aren’t going to have too big a problem with this as long as the commission is still paid. But I suppose it’s possible that convincing a seller to sell the property, and then leading them in ways that would beat the Realtor out of the commission could be construed as tortious interference. Never had it happen, or seen it happen…but it could be a possibility.
I think the central point in my post was that I wouldn’t actively market to ALL of the listings…I think that heads down an incorrect road that won’t be particularly productive, and will inalienate the Realtor community. On the other hand, approaching a seller in a case where the agent has refused to make an offer is an avenue I would take if it happened.
My other thought is that we all need to learn how to deal with Realtors to the exent that we are going to deal with listed properties. This means being a proponent for your deal, why the Realtor should be interested in at least presenting your deal, and perhaps why you should at least be present for the part of the presentation where your offer is initially presented if this is possible.
Ed,
Since you are having difficulty reading ALL of what Todd posted, I’ve retrieved it for you. Todd states,
“I have to find a way to work the listings
without the agent destroying my intentions”.
Perhaps using the wrong word "work’ the listings, Todd states this after having told the reader that his intentions are to use a “pactrust or lease option”. Instead of seeing that, you stated that you did not know what Todd’s intentions were, then later extrapolated that he was going to “cheat” the agent out of the commission.
How did you come up with that?
As I mentioned in my post to Todd, if he chooses to do this, he will be looking at having to pay a commission. Or did you not see that either?
On several occasions I’ve had an agent either refuse to present my offer or tell me that the seller “isn’t interested in that type of offer” and tell me that that would submit it. After no response for days, I have called the sellers and told that they never recieved any offer from me. Hmmmmm. Geez, that doesn’t create suspicion at all.
Re: Ed, I think you missed the point - Posted by Ed Copp (OH)
Posted by Ed Copp (OH) on May 05, 2000 at 12:03:30:
Scott,
Your last line is correct it is the job of the agent to bring buyer and seller together. Now if I have an agent that would just like to roll over and play dead, while the buyer and seller do thier thing…well in my office we would call that person a former associate.
About my interests, you can be assured that I am interested in my own well being (that would include profit). You can also be assured that if I think that a deal is real good (heck, even good 'nuff sometimes) that I will be the seller. Such a thing as a listing with the occupant will no longer exist. Just jump in there and try to end run that situation. To me it is just like if I dropped my checkbook in the grocery store, and somebody decided to “work” my checkbook for me. Just a little out of line… Now I would reccomend that anyone who is interested just get a brokers license and meet the overhead expenses of this business. That is another quite legitamate option. If you don’t like dealing with agents…COMPETE…ED