Was discouraged - Posted by al

Posted by JoeKaiser on October 24, 2000 at 24:47:47:

Successfully “double closing” nowadays is like waiting for the planets to align. It just doesn’t happen often.

Me, I gave up double closings years ago.

There are a handful of things you need to think about to successfully flip properties. Once you have those things in place, you can flip properties all day long, and you walk out of Denny’s with a $6k check and your investor buddy walks out with his new project in hand.

Why would you ever want to make it any more complicated than that?


Was discouraged - Posted by al

Posted by al on October 23, 2000 at 11:09:16:

Hi all,

I saw this site 2 years ago, and with alot of encouragement and studying I attempted my first flip. Needless to say I failed, I got discouraged and basically gave up. But now I’m back. With renewed enthusiasm I know with the help from this board I will succeed this time.

From my past experiences, I know I’m good at finding distressed property/motivated sellers and really good at negotiating a purchase price. My stumbling block is dealing with investors to flip “the tied up” property to. With every investor I contacted in my area I was upfront and honest. I told them that I was new and wanted to start “bird dogging” for them. They then proceeded not to repsond to my calls, some were newbies (trying to push l/o) and in one case, one investor went around me, he found out how much I was planning to make on the deal and backed out of the assignment contract.
My question is - how do I deal with investors who won’t try to take advantage of a newbie. Is there any way to avoid disclosing the original sale price to the investor.
I was discouraged, I’m not any longer, I will succeed with help. Any help or direction will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your time


Dog Birds, not Bird Dogs - Posted by Bill Gatten

Posted by Bill Gatten on October 23, 2000 at 19:44:12:


You’ve gotten some expert advice by the REAL experts here on CRE. Don’t take it for granted. Use it without hesitation or reservation.

Personally I prefer the the term “Dog-Bird,” to “Bird-Dog”…because those who do it work the hardest, dogging someone else’s deals, then settling for crumbs.

Want to know my dog-birding fee?

If you’ve got the cash to put up, and if I have time to find the property and end up needing your cash, we go 80:20 (20% to you) on all existing equity, all future profits and rents. But don’t count on my needing your cash…my buyers will most often have all of that I need, and I won’t have to share anything with anybody.

If you have the property and I just need to provide the buyer, then we’ll go 50:50 on that one. If you have the needy buyer ready to go who may have a couple thousand dollars and I have to do the rest…well those are a dime a dozen and I don’t need them at all…but if one of those buyers can make a 10 to 15 percent down…then we’ll talk. I’d go 50:50 on those deals: and I’d even go out and find the properties (a pretty simple task).

In our method, after getting the property and the buyer, I and my partner (whomever it may be)give 50% of the future appreciation along with the tax write-off (100%) to a resident beneficiary buyer. That way we have no negative CF, no management, no maintenance or vacancies…ever). I and my partner then split everything else between us (75:25; 50:50; 25:75, etc.): upon front money, back end money, monthly cash flow, loan principal reduction, etc.

Why do I need partners at all? To buy notes, pay closing costs, to pay fix up costs, or to pay for payment arrearages when they are needed.

Never be a dog-bird. Ever!! Unless you want to do it for me, of course (…but I don’t pay very well).

Bill Gatten

Yes! What they said… - Posted by George(OH)

Posted by George(OH) on October 23, 2000 at 17:39:14:

First of all, the real investors that you need to deal with don’t really need you to tell them that you’re new. If you’d been around, they’d know it.

Second, why offer to bird dog? I think you’re limiting yourself. It also shows, pardon the expression, a little weakness (maybe timidness is a better word), and when they sense this, they attack. The weak get eaten!

Third, if you’re getting these deals at such good prices/terms, the “investors” won’t have to resort to going around you. They also won’t pass up a good deal - if they are the real thing.

Fourth, to reiterate what Phil said, why not keep some of these hot deals for yourself? If the numbers work out great, you won’t have to hard of a time finding money. My first flip deal made me 4K, but if I had kept the deal, I would have made 12-16K on a retail sell, or buy and hold I would have had equity plus about $60 bucks cash flow.

It’s all in the attitude, and how you present yourself. When I call “investors”, I’m now telling them “I have a property at XXX Whatever Street, and I’m letting it go for $$$$ dollars”.

That’s it! Nothing about I’m new (which I am), or I’d like to develop a list of investors to flip to (which I do).

I’m not even offering to sell (flip) my contract. I’m shooting for simo closes, because I feel I could get more out of the deal. The flip where I made 4K, I could have made 7 or 8 with a double close and NOT giving out too much information about my terms with the seller.

Sorry to ramble, but us newbies gotta stick together!!

God Bless,


Re: Was discouraged - Posted by phil fernandez

Posted by phil fernandez on October 23, 2000 at 11:35:47:


Seems like you’ve got a good knack at finding and negotiating your deals. That’s the hardest part and you have accomplished that. Why deal with flipping to other investors in the first place. How about reaping the total profit by selling to retail buyers. No need to deal with the investors.

You found the deal and negotiated it, you deserve all of the profit not just a small assignment fee.

Go get em.

Different approach . . . - Posted by JoeKaiser

Posted by JoeKaiser on October 23, 2000 at 11:33:32:

Calling the “I buy houses” guys is not such a good idea. Those guys are out to make every last nickel on the deal, including your nickels.

Tie up the property and then advertise it for sale, cheap. That’s how you get the real investors to call and that’s how you eventually end up with a handful of them you can depend on to assign your next deals to.

Forget about being upfront and honest by telling them you want to start bird dogging for them. That’s backwards. You’re the genius putting the deals together, and they should know that they need you more than you need them.

See the difference?

If you set it up any other way, they’ll cream you every chance they get.


Re: Yes! What they said… - Posted by al

Posted by al on October 23, 2000 at 19:07:57:

Thanks for the advice, instead of outright flipping to an investor, I’m going to try a simo close.
BTW, you’re right, my timidness left me wide open to be attacked and “eaten” alive. I won’t let that happen again.



Re: Was discouraged - Posted by al

Posted by al on October 23, 2000 at 19:27:38:

Thanks Phil. I’m now thinking of doing a simo close with an investor or just selling(as you suggested) to a retail buyer for a bigger profit.
I’m starting to change my perspective on how to proceed in real estate investing thanks to the great advice from this forum.



Re: Different approach . . . - Posted by al

Posted by al on October 23, 2000 at 19:19:18:

Thanks for the advice Joe, I think I should give my future deals a little more respect. My previous deal was set up pretty good, I should have made them(investors) come to me. Lesson learned.



very good point - Posted by Todd W(CO)

Posted by Todd W(CO) on October 23, 2000 at 14:40:13:

I was going to say the same thing but you explained it better. good point
Todd W