Posted by Tom-FL on February 09, 2004 at 19:20:47:
[-- 4) Per the paperwork I received via MAIL I am not required to appear. I can check 2 boxes, one is to appear and dispute validity of claim and the other is to not appear and accept fines. --]
Well, how much are they talking about? If it’s a nuisance fine, then decide what’s more important, the time or the money.
My original comment still stands though: Do not disregard.
unlicesened agent question - Posted by steve smith
Posted by steve smith on February 07, 2004 at 22:13:33:
Here is the situation:
Bought preforeclosure (subject to) on contract for deed in my company name
Sold house on contract for deed to new buyers
Original owners came by, bothering the new buyers claiming they still owned the property.
New buyers stopped paying because they were harrassed so much by previous owners.
House ends up being lost to foreclosure
Original owners File a complaint with the state of Florida Division of Real Estate saying I said I was a licensed agent and was selling there house.
Division of Real Estate sends me certified mail saying they are prosecuting me civilly for operating as a real estate agent w/o a license?? According to them, this could result in license suspension (which I do not have anyways) and large fines.
My question is does anyone know if this is something I should go out and hire an attorney over or disregard? I do not intend on becoming a real estate agent and never represented myself to be one. Any advice on this situation would be appreciated. I am most concerned with whether or not they can get a judgement against me resulting in liens, credit damage etc.?
Do not disregard. - Posted by whyK
Posted by whyK on February 09, 2004 at 24:39:36:
Hi steve.
Unless you are a lawyer yourself, talk to one. I went through h*ll with my divorce, thinking that good guys always win. Law does not protect you by itself.
Just my friendly opinion…
-whyK
“Shocks the conscience of the court” - Posted by Hank FL
Posted by Hank FL on February 09, 2004 at 24:09:45:
Did you just “pass on” the payments after getting a few thousand bucks down, or did you stay in the middle?
What were the sellers trying to achieve by going to your buyers so often?
Were they trying to get those payments made to them, and not you?
Did they want to move back in the house?
What kind of profit was in this deal? Enough to “shock the conscience” of a court? LOL
From what course did get the paperwork to put this deal together?
Both closings were “kitchen table” affairs?
Did the sellers contact you during all this and express their problems with the deal to you?
Do you have anything in writing from anyone during all of this?
Did you put anything in writing other than the documents required to facilitate these deals?
Please keep us updated on this story as it unfolds.
Go through Compliance/Settlement Process - Posted by Brad MI
Posted by Brad MI on February 08, 2004 at 16:14:54:
Talk to lawyer first and go through
Compliance/Settlement Process in state agency.
Go to their web site they will have a seperate department.
This is what we have in MI.
If the investigation of a complaint discovers evidence of a violation of the Michigan Occupational Code and related rules, a Formal Complaint is issued. The Formal Complaint states the alleged violation committed by the licensee.
With the issuance of a Formal Complaint, a Respondent is allowed the opportunity to meet with a department representative to show compliance with the Occupational Code and related rules. The Respondent may also reach an agreement with the Department to settle the complaint. No testimony will be taken. Any agreement must be approved by the licensing board. If an agreement is not reached at this conference, or the licensing board rejects a proposed agreement, the matter will be referred to a formal administrative hearing.
With the approval of an agreement to settle the matter or a finding of a violation in a formal administrative hearing, the licensing board will issue a Final Order. The Final Order sets penalties, and restitution under certain circumstances. The conditions of the Final Order are monitored by the Compliance Section.
Re: unlicesened agent question - Posted by B.L.Renfrow
Posted by B.L.Renfrow on February 08, 2004 at 13:55:18:
A similar case has made the rounds on a couple internet CRE sites, including mention on this one, over the past few months.
There was a subject-to investor in NC who was late on some payments or something and found himself under scrutiny by his state’s attorney general’s office because of a BS complaint.
Initially, he ignored them. After that, despite much advice to retain an attorney, he persisted in his belief that if he just voluntarily appeared on his own and explained to them how the whole subject-to thing works, and how he was saving people from foreclosure, they’d see the light and realize he really was one of the good guys.
The AG ate him alive and spit him out. To make a long story short, it was the wrong assumption, and last I heard, the guy ended up losing all the properties he’d taken subject-to. Government agents often aren’t interested in the truth; they’re interested in what brings publicity to them and their agency.
What’s the parallel to your story? Don’t ignore the letter, and don’t respond without an attorney.
There are plenty of annoyances you can safely ignore, but a letter from a government authority usually isn’t one of them.
The threat to take away your (non-existent) license is, of course, nonsense. On the other hand, the “large fines” part would have my immediate attention.
Brian (NY)
Ask them to prove it - Posted by Big SLick
Posted by Big SLick on February 08, 2004 at 12:58:07:
If what you are saying is correct than they can not prove that you were acting as an agent or misrepresenting yourself.
You simply acted as a principal in the transaction in the form of the buyer.
Tell them to go pound sand.
-Big Slick
Re: You need a lawyer, NOW. (nt) - Posted by Ed Copp (OH)
Posted by Ed Copp (OH) on February 08, 2004 at 12:57:20:
$
Re: unlicesened agent question - Posted by Brent_IL
Posted by Brent_IL on February 08, 2004 at 12:49:50:
I didn’t get to all of the other responses, but one definite piece of advice is to never ignore any letter from any governmental entity, quasi-governmental group, or any agency having any kind of jurisdiction anywhere, no matter how inane their writings. They have more resources than you can dream of, and the employees have nothing better to do than to go after people that offend them. If you get a letter, you can dispute it, but reply within the timeframe given.
let’s talk subject-to for a minute - Posted by Kristine-CA
Posted by Kristine-CA on February 08, 2004 at 12:18:01:
Steve: I’m confused here. If you took the property subject-2 and then it went to foreclosure, you are in breach of your agreement with the original sellers, right? (Regardless of the reason.) And if your buyers stopped making payments to use, they are in breach of their contract, right?
Now I understand that the sellers are nuts, but it appears that the didn’t know where else to complain, and took it to your state’s Div. of RE. And true, you were not acting as an agent, but it is my opinion that you will need to defend yourself in this action, with or without a lawyer. Doesn’t matter if you intend to get a license or not. Just like if someone accuses me of practicing medicine w/o license. You can’t ignore the claim just because it’s whacked.
What’s more interesting to me is that the sellers seems to have a valid claim against your default. And you probably have a valid claim against your buyers. And some kind of claim that the sellers interfered with your ability to do business.
But what’s the story with defaulting on the subject-2 and letting that property go to foreclosure? Why did you do that? Does your original agreement with your sellers have any contingencies for not having a tenant/buyer? And what about your buyers–they just walked with no recourse? Or did they just forfeit their deposit?
The sellers seem to have a claim against you, they just went to the wrong place. Is there anyway to work something with them so they drop this thing?
Sincerely, Kristine
talk to Division of Real Estate - Posted by Rave MI
Posted by Rave MI on February 08, 2004 at 11:01:38:
First I would write to or go there and talk to Division of Real Estate and explain that you are an Investor. And you did not intend on becoming a real estate agent and never represented yourself to be one.
According to their own lawa verbal disclousre stands for nothing. Ask the idiot to prove it.
Re: unlicesened agent question - Posted by Jim Fox
Posted by Jim Fox on February 08, 2004 at 05:52:01:
Any attempt to hide behind your “company” will be ignored by the State. They will get a default judgment against you personally. If you really pi$$ them off they may prosecute you criminally for fraud. If you don’t hire an attorney ASAP you’ll wish you had.
Re: unlicesened agent question - Posted by Tom-FL
Posted by Tom-FL on February 08, 2004 at 04:34:47:
I vote for NOT disregarding these notices. The case will go forward with or without you. You will be in much more trouble if you don’t participate.
Re: unlicesened agent question - Posted by John (LV)
Posted by John (LV) on February 07, 2004 at 23:27:32:
Well, did you get the deed signed by the original sellers transferring the house to you, when you first bought the house? Then did you record that deed? If so, how do the original owners say they still own the property?
John (LV)
Re: “Shocks the conscience of the court” - Posted by steve smith
Posted by steve smith on February 09, 2004 at 10:01:54:
Did you just “pass on” the payments after getting a few thousand bucks down, or did you stay in the middle?
**NO, I reinstated the deadbeats loan and continued paying while my end buyers were doing the same.
What were the sellers trying to achieve by going to your buyers so often?
**They wanted the payments going to them after reinstatement with the intent of cutting me out of the deal…they were back on track since I reinstated there loan.
Were they trying to get those payments made to them, and not you? YES
Did they want to move back in the house? PROBABLE
What kind of profit was in this deal? Enough to “shock the conscience” of a court? LOL-
**MINIMAL PROFIT…It was a no equity take over in which I used the down payment on a no credit check, no pualify buyer to reinstate and sold at slightly over market.
From what course did get the paperwork to put this deal together?
Lou Brown Contract For Deed
Both closings were “kitchen table” affairs? Yes
Did the sellers contact you during all this and express their problems with the deal to you?
A couple times
Do you have anything in writing from anyone during all of this?
Yes, along with a cease and decist letter from me to them
Did you put anything in writing other than the documents required to facilitate these deals?
Have to review file to answer
Please keep us updated on this story as it unfolds.
Re: unlicesened agent question - Posted by steve smith
Posted by steve smith on February 08, 2004 at 13:58:59:
Definitely agree. I do intend on retaining counsel and the monetary fines are my concern as well.
Re: let’s talk subject-to for a minute - Posted by steve smith
Posted by steve smith on February 08, 2004 at 12:37:48:
I gave a very brief description of the situation to keep it simple and avoid overanalyzation. However, to address your question, I let the house go because the original owner would not stop harrasing our buyers. That is torterous interference and I would have a claim against them. However, they cant afford a $650 house payment, so I could not get much from them. The buyers who defaulted were stoners who also have no assets. A judgement against either of those parties would not be worth the headache and expense. Also, the original owners may in fact have a claim that I walked from the deal…but only after the torterous interference. Seems like it would be a wash. However, at this point none of that concerns me…just dealing with the issue at hand. Thanks for the response.
Re: unlicesened agent question - Posted by steve smith
Posted by steve smith on February 08, 2004 at 09:49:01:
I did not refer to making an attempt to hide behind my company. I am curious about your comment that if I do not hire an attorney ASAP I will wish that I had? What qualifies you to make that statement? Are you an attorney (specifically real estate) or do you have personal experince with the same situation?
Re: unlicesened agent question - Posted by steve smith
Posted by steve smith on February 08, 2004 at 09:44:41:
Understandably, the “case” will go n without me. However, I never agreed to play by there rules anyways…I am not a licensed agent and have no interest in becoming one.
Re: unlicesened agent question - Posted by steve smith
Posted by steve smith on February 08, 2004 at 09:46:17:
Yes, I did get the deed and recorded. However, for some reason the state seems to not care…quite ridiculous!!