Posted by Rich Dallas on March 12, 2000 at 17:57:53:
First answer: Study the course! Do EXACTLY what he says to do. Listen to the tapes twice through
and use the workbook before you ever make your first
investment. I bought my $135,000 home for just the $2,000 closing cost. I only paid $128,000! That’s $7,000 in instant equity!
The Thing that I don’t like about Carlton Sheets and other “Late Night” television Guru’s - Posted by Dirk Roach
Posted by Dirk Roach on August 21, 1999 at 11:42:46:
Hello everyone,
I was up late last night and found myself flipping through the TV. Needless-to-say I came across several broadcasts of Carlton Sheets, and several other “Guru’s”. Of course I watched, as I had nothing better to do (and I’m about sharked-out on the nature channels).
Now I know a little bit about marketing and such, because I use it on a day-to-day basis with my RE Investing and my other businesses.
The thing that I found Scary about Carlton Sheets and these other jokers, is that here they are, marketing to all these folks who have no idea about money and finance at all. I mean there were some people in some pretty bleak situations.
Then they trying to “hook” people with these outrageous dreams. “In just one year You can afford this…”, “rebuild your credit so that you can afford this fancy car”.
I mean the majority of the folks who they are marketing to don’t have a clue as to handle money in the first place and most likely got into the bleak situations that they are in because of things like “fancy cars” etc.
Believe me folks until you learn how finance and money works, it DOES NOT matter how many properties you acquire how many businesses you have, how many classified ad campaigns you start etc. You are still going to be in the same boat. In fact often times you’ll be worse off.
Look at people who win the lottery. The majority of them a year or two afterwards are broke!
Why because they do not understand how to get their money to work for them.
Personally I found all four of the infomercials that I watched last night, not only irresponsible but also scary. Anyhow if anything if you have reached this website then that is good. Check out some of these how too articles and what have you here. Utilize the chatroom, you will meet some very helpful people who freely give of their time and will help you understand how money works, and the vehicle of RE Investing for putting it to work.
Please don’t blindly get set-up to fail.
Anyhow Good Luck,
Dirk Roach
Dirk is right - Posted by JHyre in Ohio
Posted by JHyre in Ohio on August 24, 1999 at 06:56:35:
In addition, STYLE counts. How you do things…walk, talk, love and fight says alot about who you are. I am VERY cautious when it comes to flashy people- that flash often conceals a lack of substance. These late-night gurus are CHEESY. They exude nouveau/faux wealth. They appeal to some of the lower traits in human nature…get rich quick for no effort. Granted some flashy people have substance…but I usually go with the odds…and the odds calculated from my experience tell me that flashy people usually are hiding vacuousness.
John Hyre
How did you learn? - Posted by Jim Fletcher
Posted by Jim Fletcher on August 23, 1999 at 09:22:36:
I am curious as to how you learned the business of buying and selling single family houses? If you are self-taught, then you are 1 in a million. Actually, I have never met anyone who has taught themselves how to properly do assignments, flips, or hold properties for long-term without learning from someone else. What I am saying is, if you learned from someone else then it must have cost you something?
I do agree with you concerning the image gurus have on TV. The appearance is “get rich quick” or “painting the dream”. I must confess, I tried my own guru seminar company wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars with the intent not to have that image. My image was, here are the facts, here is the proof, let’s get to work. Unfortunately, people do not want to hear that. They want to be told the grass is greaner over here, imagine yourself traveling, having nice cars etc. Simply put, it works!
If it weren’t for these tactics or image, I would say 95% of us would not be in this business today. I applaude every guru who gets people into the business. I may not like the image, style, or the method of getting them in, but I do like the fact that minds and possibilities have been opened to those that wouldn’t have been otherwise.
I sincerely hope that I have not offended you in anyway. If you have never bought a guru course or seminar and was self-taught, I applaude you. For the rest of us, this IS the only way we would have made our entrance into the business.
Jim Fletcher
My 2 Cents. - Posted by Tony-Va
Posted by Tony-Va on August 23, 1999 at 06:13:34:
The post’s below bring up many valid points. I too have noticed that often times, questions are answered only a few post below. I think there is a reason for this. Many of the people who frequent Newsgroup II do so as there introduction to REI. They are seeking confirmation by example. By this I mean, they want the details as to how someone just like them has made it in this business.
Awhile back, someone posted that they had just completed their first Carlton Sheets deal. The writer went on to explain that they had made over 100 calls before closing this deal. Many many people posted their congratulations. They also wanted minute details as to how he closed the deal.
I posted that how he closed the deal was not important. That material is covered in most any course. The importance was the person he “Became” in order to overcome over 100 rejections and pursue on until he closed the deal.
As some of you have mentioned below. The information is credible. The techniques work. As Robert Kiyosaki would say, these techniques are the “Do”. It is simply modeling our sales approach to those of successful investors. Merely mimicking successful people will not allow us to attain financial freedom and success. The details of each deal, although entertaining, are irrelevant. What is important is to “Become” what the successful have “Become” in order to remain successful.
Over 100 rejections and still plowing forward is a sure sign that this person has “Become” what it takes to succeed. With that mind set, the details of the deals are simply the mechanics of the system. The mind set controls whether or not we get in front of the right buyer or seller. The details of what technique we use to close the deal are simply answering that particular buyer or seller’s problem.
I believe Sheet’s material provides sufficient training in regards to the mechanics of the deal. Sure, some additional refinement and explanation always help. What he and other Guru’s may not provide is sufficient guidance to motivate and train people to “Become” the type of person that will shrug off 100 rejections and move forward with confidence that they will close that first deal no matter what.
Without training in how to change from “Being” who we are now, to “Become” successful in an investment field that rewards creativity, many are going to fall victim to that first rejection, or 99th rejection and return the course to the shelf. They will then profess that this course does not work, it is a sham.
I believe the contrary. The course does what it was designed to do, teach the basic mechanics of Real Estate Investing. It is not a course in training people to “Become” the embodyment of success. This is the true Entrepeneur.
Dirk was born with this gift. He was able to able to mentaly “Become” an entrepeneur at a very young age. The rest of us late night infomercial viewers only began with a dream of wealth. We have had to learn to relish the challenge of “Becoming” an entrepeneur. To learn to “Become” what successful investors have had to “become” in order to obtain their wealth.
I have seen the change begin in myself and watched it grow in others. It is the people who do not learn the importance of the “Become” part, that fall victim to spending $200 of their hard earned money only to have their dreams of wealth perish on a bookshelf.
The courses are at best, half the education. The most important part must come from within.
Tony-VA
Re: The Thing that I don’t like about Carlton Sheets and other “Late Night” television Guru’s - Posted by Matthew Chan
Posted by Matthew Chan on August 22, 1999 at 23:55:36:
I agree that knowing the underlying concepts of money and finance are important. However, does that mean that an “expert” of any given field is obligated to go “go back to the beginning” and re-teach the fundamentals? I don’t think so. If that were the case, then every textbook or course ever created would several volumes thick (like an encyclopedia).
The thing about TV is it reaches EVERYBODY, qualified or not. I think I understand where you are coming from with your frustration because I see what you see everywhere. But I don’t think it is Carleton Sheets (or anyone else’s) responsibility to have someone provide the fundamentals.
Any object or idea and the use of it is ultimately the responsibility of its user to properly apply it. I’ve watched various infomercials myself. To me, some are obviously stupid and mispresent themselves. Others are fine.
It is the responsibility of the “student” to take responsibility to seek out additional information needed. You and others who post here have given good advice to many newer people here. Have you noticed that the same questions keep coming back month after month concerning the same “gurus” and various courses even when the same question is answered only a few posts lower? I guess some people need to have it heard 100 times before it becomes the truth for them.
The point I am trying to make is EVEN when good, more complete information is given, people will sabotage themselves by trying to short-cut the system and deny/disbelieve the truth.
Devils Advocate… - Posted by David Alexander
Posted by David Alexander on August 22, 1999 at 01:09:49:
Ok Dirk, it’s late at night on a Saturday and I decided to take the other side of the coin tonight. Although I agree with you, I believe having a problem with Gurus is not the way to solve it. After all they are just selling info and a system. I sometimes find myself having a problem with the “success seminar” type stuff because of the same reason. They get you all wound up and on a high to go out plunge forward, the problem being that if your charged up and heading in the wrong direction, your still heading in the wrong direction.
So where does that leave you, exactly where you said, YOU MUST first learn about business and Investing.
Then you have the fact that untill people are ready to learn, accept new things they won’t listen to new thoughts anyway. Most people have been programmed for too many years, that they have to work for money.
And how about the fact that most people won’t learn from others mistakes and will have to crash their three businesses before reaching their success.
So all in all We agree, just not on the part that it’s the GURU’s fault for the rest of everyone not becoming wealthy. we are all responsible for our own destiny, however we choose it. They are just doing the best at marketing and saying RE is a good way to make huge sums of $$$$ so you will buy their systems and info.
Like I said in an earlier post if you understand business and investing, you could sell peanuts on the corner and become wealthy.
David Alexander
Re: The Thing that I don’t like about Carlton Sheets and other “Late Night” television Guru’s - Posted by Rob FL
Posted by Rob FL on August 21, 1999 at 23:05:04:
Robert Kiyosaki tells us that we need to change our thinking. This change can be done by reading his books , Rich Dad Poor Dad and Cashflow Quadrant as well as other books like the Richest Man in Babylon, Magic of Thinking Big, Think and Grow Rich, How to Win Friends and Influence People, Power of Positive Thinking, etc.
Dirk is very right in what he says.
Dirk’s Post is a “MUST READ” for All Investors - Posted by Bill K. (AZ)
Posted by Bill K. (AZ) on August 21, 1999 at 13:14:08:
Dirk,
I’ve seen this happen time and time again with folks in my life. You have captured the essence of the problem. Being successful in ANYTHING, involves mastering many different skills. Purchasing and studying course materials is but one aspect of successful real estate investing. Being financially astute is a definite prerequisite.
Thanks for the post.
Bill K. (AZ)
Re: Dirk is right - Posted by David Alexander
Posted by David Alexander on August 24, 1999 at 11:24:02:
Or maybe just vivacious, excuberant, outgoing, etc.
Classifing outgoing Personality traits with lack of substance is absolutely ludicrous. That’s like saying all saleman are bad, because you ran into the stereotypical “Snake Oil Salesman”. One has nothing to do with the other. Integregrity is a better part of good salesmanship not the other way around, and as for as Flashiness, no matter how you slice it “Sizzle Sells”. Do you get mad because the Box Office movies now sell the Sizzle instead of the movie, No, that’s what we pay to see, Hype, etc. etc. We all pay for entertainment, it the single highest paid profession, salesman ship at it’s finest, does that Flash make one less Integeral. They are two seperate issues, one relating to marketing, and one relating to integrity, and they do not have any relation to each other.
David Alexander
Re: easy money - Posted by fletch
Posted by fletch on September 01, 1999 at 09:23:03:
Jim,
I saw your posting on the Creative REI investing site. I could not agree more with your statements about people wanting “easy money”.
You asked another person on this site how they learned REI. I learned a little from a seminar I paid $300. for when I was about 20 or 21 years old. most of the complex mortgage info went right over my head. I did however retain one concept, HUD houses, or repos. I bought a 4 bedroom home shortly after for ZERO down at a price of $9,600. I rented the house for several years while attending college, then lived in it for 2 years to avoid taxes, then sold it for 40k. I been doing this off and on ever since.
It sounds like you had a REI business and people did not want to hear your message. I am sure carlton sheets has made far more money in selling “courses” than he has in REI.
I have been a part-time investor for 15 years. I have made only 5 REI deals in 15 years but made 150k on those 5 deals. To most people this does not sound all that impressive I would imagine. People are so used to hearing people made 60k in one week on an REI deal. Or, some baseball player make 10 million per year. People actually lose their perspective on money issues. People who are broke actually think unless they can strike it rich on one deal, it isn’t worth doing!!! I am renovating a house now for resale and tried to hire a 30 something guy who is unemployed for 10 dollars an hour. He refused. He said he needed 20 per hour. And believe me, this clown has no skills. I just needed him for general labor. I turned down his offer and hired the kid across the street for 7 per hour.
I have considered doing REI full-time in recent years. My wife earns a good salary so it would be of little risk to us. I would love to find a way to give people REI info for FREE. I am curious, what kind of “program” or “system” were you selling? Was it seminar, or tapes or what??
Your posting caught my eye because we have the same last name. I am from Manchester Kentucky Fletchers, what about you?
Anyway, good luck sir
Re: How did you learn? - Posted by HR
Posted by HR on August 23, 1999 at 17:08:21:
Jim,
I agree. We often do things with less than noble intentions, but they work out well nonetheless. I know I harbored secret hopes that it would be as easy as they made it appear. Nonetheless, while it is not easy, it is very possible to make good money… if you are willing to work long, hard, and smart.
I still like the CS program. While it is basic, the info is good, and it’s still worth listening to. The other day, for instance, I decided to pop one of Carlton’s tapes in the player while I was doing some office work. It struck me how good his advice was (advice I probably missed the first few listenings because I didnt have enuf experience). I also still like to watch his infomercial from time to time. It’s inspiring. While I know better, and while it is a classic sales pitch, it’s still nice to be inspired and challenged to do even better.
My advice on this topic: get the program; it’s well worth the $180. Start there, buy other more current materials, and keep educating yourself. But by all means TAKE ACTION!
Its so much more fun when the money starts coming in. I remember when I was scared I may do something wrong; now I get scared when I haven’t made an offer in a while… I’m scared I’m missing good deals! And I am!
Educate yourself as well as you can, then jump in and swim. No seminar can possibly educate you well enuf to prepare you to encounter every detail of the real thing. You don’t need a parachute; just a good road map. The fun (and money) is in the journey. (And while you may fear it’s a free fall, it’s really not; its just a journey). It’s also a heck of a lot of fun.
Cheers,
HR
Re: The Thing that I don’t like about Carlton Sheets and other “Late Night” television Guru’s - Posted by Harry Williams
Posted by Harry Williams on September 06, 1999 at 13:22:49:
I’m with you, too many people assume that their dream
is going to appear within 30 days of receiving what ever course they ordered.Well wake up and smell the Rose’s, inreallity everything we do requires some kind
of effort.Very few Real Estate deals drop in your hands
and remember what Carlton Sheets Stated- Misery Loves
Company.Either join those of us that care enough to go
out and enhance our knowledge about where we want to be
or join The Misery Loves Company Group.
P.S. At least give it a try !
Point/Counterpoint - Posted by RickS¶
Posted by RickS¶ on August 22, 1999 at 20:14:30:
I tend to agree with all of you except for one thing. A person who wins the lottery has done just that…won the lottery. In essence, he/she was given that money by someone for nothing more than dumb luck. I see REI as a completely different scenario. If you learn the basics and put some time and mental sweat into it, you’ll move ahead. Something happens and you lose everything, you just start from scratch and move ahead again. It all depends on how much you’re willing to educate yourself and how bad you want it (success).
Personally I think I want more knowledge before I start. So far, to date, I have the Dave DelDotto REI course from back in the 90’s, Charles Givens REI course (Man that was overpriced). I’ve read Sheets course twice (Both times borrowed from friends…how’s that for a nothing down deal?), Sheets book, two books by Ty Hicks, One by Kevin Myers, one by Mike and Irene Milin, and I just ordered Lonnies book “Deals on Wheels”. I am also in the process of reading nothing down for the 90’s by Robert Allen.
My point? I want to know all there is before I dive in, but things are getting to the point where I’m finally feeling confident. So I go out there and I end up on Sheets infomercial. Even if I never learn how to handle money and lose everything, I still have the knowledge about how to go out and do it again (What a pain that would be!). Guess it all comes down to “Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime”. Did any of this make sense? This isn’t quite what I wanted my first post on here to be, but I felt the need to voice my opinion. *
Rick
PS: I may be new here, but I’ll be bringing things to news group one very shortly!
Re: Dirk is right - Posted by JHyre in Ohio
Posted by JHyre in Ohio on August 25, 1999 at 21:18:55:
“Or maybe just vivacious, excuberant, outgoing, etc.”
Allow me to clarify: It’s one thing to be outgoing and another to be flashy. For example, I consider myself outgoing- that is, I’m not shy and comunicate readily and well (too readily and not so well according to some spoilsports!).
I am not flashy. I don’t wear lots of bright shiny things, nor do I drive a status symbol with vanity plates and gold-plating. I try not to brag often and attempt to do so quietly when I feel I must. When I sell, I do so in a quiet and slightly understated manner. I emphasize value and do NOT use exagerated promises, loud phrases, “puffery” or base appeals to the “something for nothing” instinct. I AM not a “hard” seller and am EXTREMELY unreceptive to such tactics. I offer value for value.
Flashy is the hard sell, the appeal to something for nothing, the big smile. Flashy is the guy you’ve never met who says he’s your friend. Flashy displays the toys, the rolexes, the beaches and the babes like a barker at a sideshow to get the marks in the door. In short, flashy goes far beyond mere outgoing or vivacious. Flashy is sickeningly gouche or cheesy. Flashy best describes the late night real estate ads I’ve seen. Those ads are for suckers, even the courses occaisionally are not.
“Classifing outgoing Personality traits with lack of substance is absolutely ludicrous.”
First of all, I’m not classifying outgoing personality traits with zero substance. This argument is somewhat disappointing coming from you. I AM classifying certain forms of selling- the hard sell executed in poor taste, usually by those who sell seminars for a living, as opposed to invest for a living and sell seminars on the side. The former is in fact the opposite of the approach taken by the seminar sellers on this site. No babes, no beaches, no promises of something for nothing. These people do MORE than sell sizzle and seminars.
Second, I am making a generalization, not an absolute categorization. There will be exceptions to any generalization, but their is IN GENERAL (hence the term generalization) a correlation between gouche factor (or cheesiness or flash) and lack of substance. The flash is just TOO bright and TOO loud- it’s designed to attract simple minds. Yes, some non-simple minds will be attracted as well. But on the whole “sizzle” attracts the unwary and the unanalytical. More experienced/wise/analytical types will generally seek the substance. The substance does not require dramatic antics to sell. A merely outgoing or vivacious person can sell substance- if it’s there.
In my experience this generalization is valid. Most of the flashy types I’ve dealt with- various realtors, used car salesmen, door to door types- offer lots of sizzle and little steak. I want steak. If you’re looking to spend a few hundred/thousand bucks on a seminar, I assume you also want steak. If you actually crave the sizzle, you’ll get it- and be quickly parted from your money.
“That’s like saying all saleman are bad”
Not at all. Again, note the difference between generalization (most) and absolute (all). I indulge in the former, not the latter.
"because you ran into the stereotypical “Snake Oil Salesman.”
Give me SOME credit…I’ve run into enough of them to make the correlation between bad taste and pushiness and lack of substance- in most cases.
“One has nothing to do with the other.”
This begs the question- I am asseting exactly the opposite. Where gouche tactics pervade, substance rarely follows. The non-gouche guy has almost always taken better care of me.
“Integregrity is a better part of good salesmanship not the other way around”
I agree. And because of that, good salesmanship is assertive enough to advertise the integrity by focusing on FACTS and SUBSTANCE. Good salesmanship does NOT require tasteless appeals and silly antics as a distraction. Those who would be swayed by such are generally VERY vulnerable to “something for nothing” and often get ripped-off. Those who are not swayed generally ridicule such tactics- which is why late-night TV ads and used-car salesmen have the reputation they do.
“and as for as Flashiness, no matter how you slice it “Sizzle Sells”.”
A certian amount of “sizzle” helps get the message out. Too much, and you wonder why the message is being hidden or if one is even present (e.g.- political campaings).
“Do you get mad because the Box Office movies now sell the Sizzle instead of the movie, No, that’s what we pay to see, Hype, etc. etc. We all pay for entertainment, it the single highest paid profession, salesman ship at it’s finest, does that Flash make one less Integeral.”
A unique category. As you say, the PRODUCT itself is entertainemnt- sizzle in a word. I would hope that someone paying big money for a seminar expects more than entertainment. Hollywood, by the way, is WELL known for its sheer vacuousness- sheer sizzle with occasional pretences at substance.
“They are two seperate issues, one relating to marketing, and one relating to integrity, and they do not have any relation to each other.”
To summarize my point, my experience is that the oposite is true. A certain TYPE of marketing indicates a probable lack of substance or good deal. Too hard a sell, too much cheesiness, the new-found “friend”- these are the classic warning signs.
Vivacious is one thing. An oily approach based on pure sizzle is quite another. In my view, the late-night crowd belong squarely in the latter category.
Please do not mistake my complete disagreement with you on this topic for dislike or scorn. It’s always fun chatting with you, even (especially?) when we disagree. I’m sure we’ll continue to chat on this and other issues (mobile homes, taxes, etc.).
John Hyre
Re: easy money - Posted by Jim Fletcher
Posted by Jim Fletcher on September 04, 1999 at 09:09:33:
I believe most of my folks came from Stanford and Somerset area of Kentucky. Since I have never been there or have researched my family history, I cannot tell you more. Your handle is Fletch? Is this a spinoff of the movie? I am sure that we are probably related??? Hey cuz
To answer your question concerning my failed guru company, I had the typical books with information about real estate investing and how we did the business. I thought I could duplicate what Charles Givens and Mark Haroldson were doing. I thought it couldn’t be that hard to get 100’s of people to show up and razzle and dazzle and sell my program. I thought, like so many gurus think, that my material is fresh, new, and what everyone needs. What I did not realize was how much marketing costs and how the process works. For instance, Charles Givens had the image of shaking hands with presidents and celebrities, Fortune Financial has Success Magazine, and Dave DelDotto shot his video in Hawaii with John Davidson. I had nothing and could not really afford much. If I remember, I had $200k or $300k to spend and it was all wasted over a period of time. Remember that it costs $50k of media at a minimum to get into just 1 city. If you try 5 or 6 cities and they flop, it’s over. I gambled and lost. But I have learned a great deal, which I hope to use this knowledge sometime in the future. Besides, it would not have mattered if I had the absolute best, proven, and secure program in the world. If you do not know how to speak and communicate (and sell), the dance is over real quick.
Jim Fletcher
Re: easy money - Posted by Ele
Posted by Ele on September 01, 1999 at 20:02:14:
My husband broke down and purchased CS. What do we do now? Where can I go for updated tax information? Help!
Re: easy money - Posted by Ele
Posted by Ele on September 01, 1999 at 20:01:48:
My husband broke down the purchased CS. What do we do now? Where can I go for updated tax information? Help!
That may be a mistake - Posted by HR
Posted by HR on August 23, 1999 at 17:21:06:
Rick,
Here’s my bottom line, unasked for opinion: you dont necessarily need to know it all to do well. I’m speaking as a confessed sinner from the school of want-to-know-it-all, though.
I too read a lot of books. (My brother in law jokingly said one day that he was going to give me a rei book one day from Barnes and Noble for my birthday, but that I had read them all; it wasn’t a joke. I had). I bought a lot of courses here. I went to seminars, etc etc. And now I’m doing deals. And honestly, while all that info is good, and while I don’t regret it, it was overkill. You really don’t need to know a lot to get started and do well. These gurus make it a lot harder than it is, in order to convince you you need their information. Don’t sweat the info. At best, all the information can do is get you started. It’s the school of experience that will teach you the most and produce your profit. So get started!
Having said that, I don’t regret what I did. I just woulden’t advocate it for others. Know why? At the bottom of it all, it wasn’t really about information. It was about fear. I was scared. I was scared I would make a mistake. I was scared I would put my family’s financial future in jeopardy. I was scared I would do something wrong. It was all about fear, Rick. Knowledge, and a good group of people around me as advisors and mentors, helped me overcome the fear.
Look deep within yourself and discover what’s under the need to know a lot before you start. It’s an emotion, not an intellectual reason, that’s driving the behavior. Address that. And get started! It’s so much more fun doing than knowing.
Good luck,
HR