Posted by Rob on July 23, 2001 at 15:32:17:

Are you saying that no one gets in trouble in NYC?
That you live in a perfect world. Are there foreclosure, or auction there? People have to dump their properties somewhere?

No investor would partner with a newbie with a great deal and give him a percent of the deal, or a fee?
Deal are made all the time. People don’t go around telling everyone what they done. I have seen a investor in the S.F. bayarea who made 300K in one week, of course that is not a no money down deal. Investors are now adjusting to the market, just like the investors in the stock market.

Things can always be done. Some are more difficult than others. The creatively of the investors here are incredible, because they are willing to make thing happen while other can’t, or won’t.
I have also met realtors that don’t even know how to create, look for, or get a good deal.


Posted by PHIL_ca on July 22, 2001 at 11:57:59:


Can I get some guidance from the talent here? We have a strong sellers market here in So Cal, probably like most places in the U.S. right now. Houses are selling at top prices and are on the market 5-10 days. Wholesaling is extremely difficult to pull off.

I am new, have been educating myself on the wholesale end and putting out a lot of offers, I’m spinning my wheels I feel.

In a market like this which direction should I be going?
Is wholesaling still viable? What are my options.

God I know these are stupid questions but at my stage they are the only ones I know to ask.

Re: SELLERS MARKET - Posted by SueC

Posted by SueC on July 23, 2001 at 07:47:49:

Wholesaleing probably IS hard to pull off. But you say So Cal like it’s a single town. You have to go where you can do the deals, where the houses are in the right price range and neighborhood.

Even Steve Cook, when he started out wholesaling, realized he couldnt’ do it right in his immediate area, and drove 45 minutes away to where it COULD be done.

I would bet that with the economy the way it is right now in CA that there are a whole heck of a lot of motivated sellers. You just have to find them. You won’t find them through realtors. See John Boy’s post at, and pull all of Matt B’s and Steve Cook’s posts from archives. You might get some ideas.

Re: SELLERS MARKET - Posted by Matt B

Posted by Matt B on July 22, 2001 at 13:19:20:

You know, if I had a penny for every person who told me that they were in a HOT MARKET where houses for sale sat only 2-3 days before they sold, and sold for 5-10% above asking price, I’d be able to go buy me a whole stack of motivational books that tell you that “what you believe becomes your reality”!!!

I have come to believe that I have a magic power. I think it has something to do with the fact that when I was born, the doctor was using a new type of forceps to remove me from my mother. This slightly deformed my skull (you should have seen me when I had my head shaved in basic training!) and gave me this magical ability. This ability causes real estate deals and motivated sellers to magically appear anywhere I go!

I don’t think I can teach this magical ability, but if you go down just a little on the board and read Ed Garcia’s thought for the day, you may actually start developing this magical ability. (Of course, maybe it really was just those new fangled forceps!)

Doesn’t work in NYC - Posted by Mrs SD(NYC)

Posted by Mrs SD(NYC) on July 24, 2001 at 24:50:11:

Anyone who says that creative, no-money down deals can work in NYC is BSing newbies.

Newbies, take it from my painful experiences, you will lose money and time if you try these techniques in any of the outer boroughs. I won’t even mention Manhattan, that’s like a different world-$3,000 per month closet-sized apartments are common. Single family homes are rare. Brownstones in Harlem are going for half a mil and up.

Although I’m a newbie, I put in IMMENSE effort and many months worth of time to no avail. Bill is a seasoned investor in our area; if you don’t believe me, take the advice of someone whose been around the block. Frank Chin knows it’s true also that’s why he’s quiet on the issue.

Use your common sense. Think about it. Why aren’t there ANY success stories by anyone from NYC?

Anyone telling newbies otherwise is doing them a disservice. I’m only trying to help you folks because I’m a caring person and don’t want to you to go through what I went through.

As Bill mentioned, look upstate for your rei. Take the MetroNorth or drive. That’s what I plan to do when I recover from my losses.

All the best. God Bless,
Mrs SD

Re: SELLERS MARKET - Posted by Bill (NYC)

Posted by Bill (NYC) on July 23, 2001 at 24:59:28:

Everytime I read a posting with great common sense, I also read a response saying “no, no, it is very possible to make this work in a hot market”. Let’s get real now. I’ve been using this program for a few years and it is VERY UNLIKELY to work in a BIG and EXPENSIVE HOT market like NYC. Don’t BS these nice folks with the notion that it’s them and not the program because it’s bologna! This program can work great in areas where the properties are selling for low amounts. I would pay $90k for a 4 family in a “reasonable” town but I wouldn’t want to pay 600k for the same 4 family in NYC. If you were to pay 600k in a market like NYC then you are not a good investor. Just look at the Carlton Sheets infomercial on TV! Are you listening when his successful investors are telling us the ridiculous prices they pay for their properties??? I always scratch my head and say “Where the hell are they buying these houses so cheap?” LOL… Not one of those people is operating in a HOT and EXPENSIVE MARKET! Unfortunately, you may need to travel a bit to make the Carlton Sheets program work. Go to areas that are cheap (NOT DECLINING NEIGHBORHOODS)! Carlton made much of his money in the Tampa Bay area where single family homes were selling for a measly 30-50k!!! Duplex properties were selling 40-60k, triplex 50-70k, etc… Let’s play nice with the Newbees and steer them the right way so they too can succeed. Listen, I’ve gotten lucky with my investing in NYC because my timing was great. I’ve made a lot of money in this market but now I’m looking elsewhere because it is VERY PRICEY! You can lose your shirt if you invest now and aren’t careful with what you are buying. I’m now travelling outside of NYC to areas where a 4 family can be purchased for under 100k… You have a better chance of succeeding and you won’t feel overwhelmed with a HUGE mortgage. Good luck and happy investing.

If it Doesn’t work in NYC - Try Philly - Posted by Frank Chin

Posted by Frank Chin on July 26, 2001 at 06:32:33:

Hi Mrs SD:

Currently, we have a buying frenzy in this crazy NYC SELLER market. I don’t even think its the right TIME or PLACE to be buying even conventionally, let alone no money down creative deals. I have a tenant renting from me, who owns a condo. He’s waiting for the market to cool before he buys a house.

I’ve been busy selling - not buying.

New reports this morning indicate Alan Greenspan mentioned that “the strong housing market compensated for the weak stock market”. I would wait for things to COOL DOWN before buying. The same new report wondered how long this boom can last.

If you’re looking for places within two hours of NYC, try checking out Philadelphia, and the eastern part of Pennsylvania. The Poconos is one of the fastest growing areas.


Demographically, businesses and population had been relocating from New York to New Jersey. Now, New Jersey is overcrowded, congested, and has the highest auto insurance rates in the nation. So guess where people and businesses are moving to? Pennsylvania.

Unfortunately, many people concentrate on the MICRO issues of making offers, looking for motivated sellers, but ignore the MACRO issues of industrial and population growth.

Follow the “100 house rule” in Philly and Eatern PA and check properties and neighborhoods while you wait for the market to cool down. After you’re educated with the area - then make your offers.

By the way, we know people several people who live in Philly and work in NYC. There’s a good reason. There was a NY Times article done on it a few years back. Can you guess why? For the longest time, housing costs in Philly is 25% that of NYC.

If these folks can do it every day - you can do it on weekends checking the market.

BUT the bigger long term population shift is from the Norhteast (NY and NJ) of the US to the South and the west (FL and AZ). This is where I’m setting my sights now.

Frank Chin

Re: SELLERS MARKET - Posted by Matt B

Posted by Matt B on July 23, 2001 at 08:23:54:

Well, Bill, I’m sorry if “this program” doesn’t work well for you in some areas, but if you’re referring to the Carlton Sheets’ course, I do not use it and have never actually read it. Perhaps that’s why I get so many deals. I do not try to buy expensive properties, get a mortgage and hold onto them, hoping to make some money at some point.

What I do are sandwich lease options that allow me to control a property without owning it. And I know that they can be done in all the “hot” markets out there because every time I go to a “hot” market, deals start appearing. I have been doing a lot of traveling lately, working with a lot of people to help them get started doing these types of deals and get e-mails almost every day from someone I’ve helped, talking about a deal they just signed.

Believe me, I am trying to steer newbies right, Bill. I am told by many people that I help that they get ready to go, then are scared by a post by someone like you, claiming that these deals are too hard or too scarce to find. They get very discouraged until I show up. Perhaps I’m too naive to realize that there are some places where doing these types of deals just won’t work. In your defense, I have not been to every single city in America yet, so there may indeed be a place where this doesn’t work.

If you are relying on finding cheap properties, getting a mortgage on them, then renting them out, I can see how it would be difficult to see that creative deals can be done anywhere. I see nothing all that creative about qualifying for a mortgage and becoming a landlord though.

One final little word of advice, Bill. I am not saying this to be sarcastic or mean. Heck, Bill, I don’t even know you, but what you wrote kind of got to me. Any way, before you post something about what someone here has said, disagreeing with them, you may want to do a little investigating. Do an archive search. You may notice that I have a little bit of experience in this area. I’m not "BS"ing anyone when I tell them I can do my creative deals just about anywhere. You would also notice after a little digging that I never mention using Carlton Sheets’ methods. If you use them with success, then good for you. I don’t ever argue with someone who is having success at what they do. You’ve found your niche and you are making it work. However, at the same time, since I have never even seen the Sheets’ material, I am not going to post to someone, telling them what can or cannot be done with it.

Re: SELLERS MARKET - Posted by SueC

Posted by SueC on July 23, 2001 at 07:56:02:

I think what Matt’s saying is “hot market” is relative. Yes, NYC is BIG - but as a result, you probably COULD pick up deals in Queens or Brooklyn, for example. Same in LA, SF, Boston… You DO have to go to the locations where the housing prices are moderate, but there are motivated sellers at all ends of the spectrum. It depends on the techniques you’re using. Matt is not using a realtor to buy anything, but finding sellers who are asking him to take over their problem. If you’re not paying ANYTHING for a property, but only controlling it, you really can do this anywhere. There might be fewer deals, but they are there. I’d bet there are more vacant condos and co-ops sitting right in downtown Manhattan than you might think, despite how hot the market is. Finding their owners could be a pretty lucrative niche for someone who is smart enough to do it. Carlton Sheet’s program might not work everywhere, but there are some techniques that might work where others don’t.

I mean, really - Donald Trump bought for no money down in NYC - right?? And at a time when all he had was, well, lets just say women don’t have (or need) 'em.

Re: SELLERS MARKET - Posted by J. CA

Posted by J. CA on July 23, 2001 at 07:32:10:

Have you thought about the fact that your so-called ‘cheap’ houses were expensive at one time? About 30 years ago my parents built a house for around $30k, sold it 18 months later for about $40k because they were leaving the country. When they came back 10 months later, that house was on the market for $60k (and sold for that.) Today that same house is worth over $200k. But there’s still the same opportunities to profit in these areas as there were 30 years ago.

I would suggest that as long as people need to get out of their properties, and as long as others are willing to buy them. It doesn’t matter how much those properties are selling for.

What are you going to do when there are NO houses for less than $300k, anywhere in the country? Are you going to give up on investing just because of one more zero?

Hi Frank! Thanks for the words of wisdom! (nt) :slight_smile: - Posted by Mrs SD

Posted by Mrs SD on July 26, 2001 at 18:46:04:


Re: SELLERS MARKET - Posted by Bill (NY)

Posted by Bill (NY) on July 23, 2001 at 09:40:31:

I have to say that I don’t agree with your response. First of all, I’d like you to tell me which areas in NYC are “cheaper” without having to go into a war zone that could get you killed. Secondly, you think that Brooklyn and Queens is affordable? LOL. I know my market very well and again the only places that are “cheap” in Brooklyn and Queens are the areas that instill fear into the landlord. Been there, done that. I’ve examined those areas and many of the tenants don’t pay rent and they have a terrible attitude. Incidentally, I have yet to find an “idiot” in the NYC and outer boroughs that will sell me a property with no money down. It’s just not that type of market. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that money can’t be made in this market. I’ve made a ton of money investing here because I “caught” the wave prior to the major price jumps. but… I’m telling you matter of factly that today, you can forget it. I’m just saying that it can’t be made the way you are describing it. Most investors that try Carltons’ techniques here will not fare well at all. If you do happen by some freak chance to find a no money down deal in a decent area then I guarantee you that you will be losing money! Listen, I’m a seasoned investor and I know what I’m talking about. In order to succeed with this course, you need to go to the areas where you can find a wealth of properties that are inexpensive across the board. This way it becomes a numbers game. NY is NOT a numbers game. For example, I’ve shifted y focus for my investing to outside of NY area now. I’ve decided to work in Upstate NY where you can purchase a 4, 5, or 6 family for under 100k. I know that I’m traveling a bit but it’s my business so I don’t mind doing it. Let’s not even get into the Donald Trump factor. We’re not buying multi million dollar properties every move we make. This is just my opinion. I don’t mean to discourage anyone. If you know of (1) successful RE investor using creative techniques in NYC, I’d like you to tell me who that person is. I’m always eager to learn something new.

Re: SELLERS MARKET - Posted by Bill (NY)

Posted by Bill (NY) on July 23, 2001 at 09:34:04:

Hey, I’m not in total disagreement with you. Yes, houses have appreciated in value over the years. I’m not disputing that fact. I’m also not saying that money down deals won’t work. There is a very HIGH degree of difficulty to get it to work in the NYC area. VERY HIGH DEGREE. Just check it out. I want the Newbee investor to feel a sense of success. So, NYC and outer boroughs would be a horrible place to start. They will get eaten up alive and not make money. Take my nephew for example. He’s 21 years old and ready to begin investing. As a new investor, there is NO WAY this kid will feel like he’s succeeding when the deck in our area is stacked against him. I’m physically taking him to areas that will make him feel more comfortable and guiding him. Please show me one successful creative investor that you know of that lives in NYC area. Donald Trump doesn’t count. We’re not buying multi million dollar properties here. I actually did an archive on this investment site and found that every NYC are person has not been able to get good results in NY. Yet people like you tell us otherwise. Do you live in NYC area and understand our market?

Re: SELLERS MARKET - Posted by Len(nyc)

Posted by Len(nyc) on July 23, 2001 at 10:48:05:

Im a newbie in the NYC area , and have yet to do my first deal, just trying to get my feet wet now. Even though your post was pretty discouraging, I would still like to give you the benefit of the doubt and would appreciate what areas you have now choosen to invest in? Also, when dealing with the outer borughs, in what order would you place them in regards to which would be better to try rei techniques. Not just no money down, but subject to, and possible l/o. Thanks for your time and suggestions.

Re: SELLERS MARKET - Posted by Bill (NYC)

Posted by Bill (NYC) on July 23, 2001 at 12:26:18:

My apologies,

My intent was not to discourage a potential investor in the NYC area market place. I was just being realistic because all of these banaheads who don’t invest here are telling me that creative RE investing is very possible here. Meanwhile, they buy properties in areas that are very cheap compared to what you and I must deal with. Look, if you don’t believe me then trial by fire is your only option. As far as outer boroughs go… Brooklyn has become a popular stomping ground for investors. but… they are not the creative RE investors that you have come to know. They are the cash in hand, rehabbing, investors. I haven’t seen much in the way of lease options in these neighborhoods. If you’re considering a lease option in these bad areas then buyer beware. You can also pick up some cheap properties in Bushwick (Brooklyn) but again, you better be CAREFUL. You’ll probably get shot trying to collect rent. If you want to just flip the property, good luck! I’m not talking out of my butt… I know what I’m saying. I travel all over the place locating properties for purchase. Queens is another borough of great interest (even greater than Brooklyn). The big problem here is that the properties are big $$$$! If you want to buy to flip, good luck finding a deal (especially in places like Astoria, College Point, Whitestone, Malba, and Bayside). If you want to buy on a lease option, good luck with the 20 other buyers with cash that you’ll be competing with. When I put one of my properties up for sale in College Point (Queens), I had twenty potential buyers, and 13 solid offers with HUGE down payments. Are you telling me that with all my options, I would even conscider a no money down deal? Why would I??? here’s a suggestion… why don’t you log onto and check out the Albany area of NY!!! It’s a couple of hours away but well worth the trouble. Look for Commercial properties ranging from 100-250k. You’ll be amazed at the Debt/Income ratio. Check it out. These are the areas that these big mouths are working from. That’s why they talk a good game because the techniques they use can and WILL work in those areas. I wish you nothing but the best. You can and will make a lot of money in RE. I just think that in NYC metro area, you missed the boat. The market is currently at a peak and I believe a decline is iminent. Gopd luck.