Question for full-timers - Posted by gb-fl

Posted by Alexander (FL) on August 29, 2005 at 11:30:43:

I was able to do this with a combination of investment strategies…

Rentals
(my least favorite)
Buy, fix and resell
Mobile home park
(Highest yield)
Mobile home notes
Flips to land developers
(most profitable)
Currently involved in a new self storage facility.

Next year I expect to add about $700K to my net worth with the development of four residential units.

Another thing…
Although I am busy and like to stay busy, I take long vacations whenever I feel like getting away.

Question for full-timers - Posted by gb-fl

Posted by gb-fl on August 26, 2005 at 03:19:59:

Hi folks.
I own some rentals and I work full-time. I am thinking of selling and using the cash to go full-time and live of the rest. These rentals are not cash flowing but have equity. I know I would have to pay taxes on what ever I profit, that is ok. I am in Miami, fl. and I am thinking of trying pre-construction condos. Does this sound like a plan? I already have a home equity line for 100k, not being used right now. Profit will be between 300-400k less taxes. I would really appreciate any response…I have been struggling with this idea for a while…quitting my job and going full-time. I know it wont be easy…not expecting it to, but I am ready. PS credit is also good 700 score.
Thanks.

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by Greg (FL)

Posted by Greg (FL) on August 29, 2005 at 20:52:39:

gb-
JMHO, but forget the MIA condos. There are a hundred studies out there that state the obvious… that the market is saturated and oversold and “investors” make up the lion’s share of “buyers”.

I’m buying in MIA… just not overpriced condos. When you’re ready to start flipping to build your cash, let me know. You can email me direct to network.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks,
Greg(FL)

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by John Sheridan

Posted by John Sheridan on August 28, 2005 at 20:34:37:

So, in answer to my question about becoming a millionaire quickly (I define “quickly” as less than 20 years) we have 2 people who say they have done it, and one person who quotes a RE guru who supposedly said “everybody does it”.

Now this will be a long post, because I’m going to get everything I am thinking on this subject off my mind. I’ve been around for a while, and I’ve been from here to there in the investment world. I’ve seen lots of “get rich quick” schemes out there, and I’ve seen lots of people hurt by them. They get hurt when they are persuaded to take too many risks. Like for example, giving up their day job to open their own business, when they have not proven yet that they can run a viable business.

That venerable book “The Millionaire Next Door” - a book that most people on this site pay lip service to, but I feel that only a few have really read it carefully - sums up the facts. It is true that a large proportion of millionaires are business owners, but the authors are quick to point out that running your own business does not at all guarantee that you will become wealthy. They say that “only a very small percentage of business owners earn a six figure income” and “most start up business fail”.

As for the John Shaub quote - well, maybe real estate is a better business than any other. But every time I have heard that about any business or investment, I have always discovered that it was not so. So please pardon me if I am suspicious. I would ask, what did he base this statement on? Does he have hard data, or is it just his memory? The problem with memory is that it is basically anecdotal evidence. You tend to remember what you want, and forget what you don’t like. Another name for this is “gambler’s delusion”. Also, what about the people who failed? Does he have an accurate mental count of them? I’ll bet he doesn’t.

As for the people did get rich quickly - well, I never said that was impossible. It certainly is possible. But now I’m going to mention a little word, a four letter word that successful people don’t like. Can you spell “L-u-c-k”?

When you ask highly successful people about the key to their success, you hear things like “discipline”, “hard work”, etc. but the “L-word” is almost never mentioned. You do hear the L-word from the people who fail though. With them, it’s almost every other word in the sentence.

Now as I see it, the real truth is somewhere between those two extremes. If you work hard and are disciplined etc. then the odds become stacked in your favor. But luck is always an issue. With above average luck, you get rich quickly. With below average luck, it takes you longer. For the people who really make it (think Bill Gates and Warren Buffet here) luck is a big factor. Do you really think that in each case there is only one person in the entire nation who has the talent to do what these people have done? Of course not, there are many people who could have done it. But to be in the right place at the right time, and to have things work out in the right way - that’s what you need to hit it big.

So, what does all this have to do with the issue at hand? Well, I caution the original poster to take care when listening to the “success stories” that abound on this forum and elsewhere. We are hearing only one side of the issue. There is no way to know how many people have tried the same exact things, but failed. No one has a site for “failure stories” - and if they did, who would post there anyway?

And I have not even mentioned the problem of cash flow. A business owner must make sure that they generate enough cash to live on, and this must be done while dealing with all the other problems involved with growing the business and making it profitable.

So I would advise, someone who has a day job should not give it up based upon what they hear about other people’s success stories. You need a success story of your own. Run your real estate business on the side. When your business gives you an income that is roughly equal to your day job, and does it for at least 3 years but preferably 5 years, then you can give up your day job. I know that sounds slow and conservative compared to what a lot of so-called “gurus” tell you. Well, you can take more chances and try to go faster if you want to. Then you might get there quickly, or you might not get there at all. If you are more conservative then it might take you longer, but you are much more likely to get there. In other words, “slow and steady wins the race”.

Pre-construction condos in Miami - Posted by JT-IN

Posted by JT-IN on August 28, 2005 at 16:44:31:

gb:

I personally like the part of the plan of liquidating the existing rentals, and sitting on the profits for the time being. What I don’t like is entering into the Pre-con condo mkt in Miami… These units are highly valued and there is a gob of investory getting ready to hit the mkt in Miami. I think much more than the consumer / end-user are going to be able to swallow. This will not bode well for the Miami condo mkt, IMO.

No crystal ball, but I think that some major money is betting on the side of the Miami mkt faltering. Here is an article about the forming of some Vulture Funds for that very purpose.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/11812197.htm

By such a major change in your mode of operation, and being solely dependent upon the health of the Miami condo market, wouldn’t be what I would recommend for your next move… I would recommend some lower risk moves with the cash that you realize from the sale of your rentals…

Just the way that I view things…

JT-IN

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by Scott

Posted by Scott on August 28, 2005 at 07:32:37:

I am going to preference what I am going to post by saying I am a new investor and I am learning as I go. I don’t know the Florida market, and I don’t know your property / income particulars.

I would not touch my HELOC. Can you sell half of your rental property and rollover the funds to paydown or even payoff your other rentals? That could create a positive cashflow on your remaining property there.

I would not touch the pre-construction condo market, I just feel the overhead costs will be to high. I would also not look into rehabbings property until your situation is more stable. There are still deals to be found in Florida. Look into wholesale deals - flipping them to more seasoned investors and properties in DDD (Death, Divorce, Dispair). You can get options on property and assign or sell the option to other investors for a fee for little to no out of pocket cash. As you learn advance to other avenues.

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by gene

Posted by gene on August 26, 2005 at 18:36:18:

Playing the condo market is like playing with fire. I think its more dangerous than daytrading was during the dot com boom.

Southern Florida is likely about to take a big hit. You might loose all the equity that was magially created over the last 5 years.

You need to be much more realistic about how long a market can stay this hot.

The investors in Fl that I know are selling. Its very close to the top. My question is “who is buying from them”. I guess todays buyers are hoping for a bigger fool to come along in a few months…because the fundamentals are surely not there.

Gene

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by Chris (WI)

Posted by Chris (WI) on August 26, 2005 at 13:40:52:

Personally I would sell, take the tax hit on the profit and payoff my house. I really like having a low personal overhead. Also you would then have a larger line of credit to buy things with. I am full time by default (meaning I didn’t have a job when I started REI) and it is working out so far. But I concentrate on buying preforeclosures and doing quick flips. I won’t even consider buying and holding until I am in a much stronger position to weather vacancies, repairs, etc. I hesitate to call what I am doing “investing” because I think of investing as holding for the long term wealth building benefits. I guess I really only have a self employed job because my income stops unless I am out there finding the next deal. But it is the best job I’ve ever had and also has the hugest upside potential of any job I’ve ever had. Good luck

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by Sailor

Posted by Sailor on August 26, 2005 at 12:47:15:

Although it may appear from our posts that we are all wheeling/dealing full-time, pls note that many of us use REI on a part-time basis. I bet most of us don’t live off our REI, but use it for wealth-building; e.g., I live off totally separate income. I’ve been retired for many years & spend more time w/DGGDs & baking bread than on REI. If I sell something, I plow 95% of it right back into something else. I only work RE enough to keep my $$$ working for me.

The facts that you have a large mortgage payment & that you still have kids @ home tells me you aren’t ready yet for full-time. Not everyone agrees w/me, but I think it is important to work toward retiring a home mortgage before doing anything else. I didn’t achieve that until my 40’s, but it always galled me to have to rent someone else’s $$$ to pay off a house in someone else’s name. Once that mortgage is retired, your pantry & freezer both are full, you can hunker down whenever times are bad & that pesky escrow doesn’t close for 5 months. That is, if you somehow have managed to maintain health insurance. Medical bills are the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy, & a single out-of-the-blue gallbladder attack can end up costing you 20k. I’ve had 3 different grandchildren rushed to the hospital, 2 by helicopter, in separate car/household accidents. One ended up having 13 surgeries in less than 2 years (her bills ran over $1 million). I’ve blanked out the # of times I’ve made midnight emergency runs to the hospital for one generation or the other over the years. If health costs don’t occur in any given year for a family, they’ll probably happen the following one. Please don’t consider a vocational change unless you’ve got this area covered.

I wish you good luck, good planning, good health, & good fortune. Keep us posted–

Tye

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by Ed Garcia

Posted by Ed Garcia on August 26, 2005 at 11:31:50:

GB,

I like the ideal of you selling your rentals if they are not “Positive Cash Flowing” and you have equity in them, because I feel the market is peaking and now is the best time to sell.

You are not going to be a happy camper if you miss this window of opportunity and then find that the market dropes and you?re stuck with juglling your rents and mortgage payments. A vacancy or two can really make you pay attention so sell.

Never be afraid to take a profit.

I don?t think that you?re ready to go full time. An investor who goes full time is a serious investor who is a prudent investor making their money on the buy and the property must have Positive Cash Flow. We don?t do this for the practice, we make our money on the buy and it cash flows or we don?t do the deal. GB you?ve made money so far because you were in the right place at the right time which is by chance, not because you?re a prudent buyer. A market change and a vacancy or two could put you into a tail spin and jeprodise everything you done.

By your own statement of ?I am thinking of trying pre-construction condos. Does this sound like a plan?? tells me that you don?t have a for sure game plan and are not confident in your direction of investing. Michaela, gave you a partial suggesting in suggesting that you do a 1031 exchange and go into a property producing a positive cash flow. You still need to know how to buy right in order to do yourself justice.

GB you?ve asked us for our opinion and I hope that I didn?t offend you in giving you mine.

Don?t worry, when the time comes for you to go into full time investing, you?ll know it, and I can assure you, you won?t have to ask us.

Ed Garcia

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by gb-fl

Posted by gb-fl on August 26, 2005 at 10:55:58:

Thanks to all who’ve responded so far. Someone asked in one of the posts what my goal is, it is to have 1mil in cash or equity or both by 40yrs, I am 32 right now. Since I live in Miami and it’s very hard to find props that cash flow, I thought I would do the buy and sell strategy. I have had my fill of being a landlord, although it has been good to me and I’ve learned alot. Like to try buy and sell.

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by Patrick S. Lawson

Posted by Patrick S. Lawson on August 26, 2005 at 09:37:39:

I also suggest starting part-time. Find a niche and work it, everyone is a real estate investor these days. A lot of folks have already been burnt by the market and there are a lot more to come. If you are set on rehabs I suggest taking a look at this web site http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/map2.cfm?CurrentPageID=1&State=FL

If you can understand the technicals and see the big picture It could very well be worth your time. It might be your niche. It’s just my opinion.

Patrick S. Lawson

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by John

Posted by John on August 26, 2005 at 09:05:53:

Please don’t make my mistake. I am 53 years old and worked construction 30+ yrs. My knees blew out and I made the jump to full time last year. I own 8 rentals that cash flow decent 2-500/mo. I have equity in all of them. My wife has a 2K mortgage payments on our house that I pay to live here. (LOL) The market is so hot even the rehabs are going above market. With no J*B, I pay higher interest rates on NO Doc loans. I just don’t have enough cash flow yet to do this. I am facing going back to construction for awhile til I can get a higher cash flow, or get the kids out of the house, to make it work. I do not want to pull equity to live on as it will increase payments and kill my current cash flow. Just make sure you consider your options carefully before you jump.

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by michaela-ATL

Posted by michaela-ATL on August 26, 2005 at 06:48:10:

gb,
for one thing, have you looked at 1031 exchange? That would allow you to sell and roll the money into other properties and deferring taxes. You could sell one fo the rentals and use that money to live off (on that profit you’d have to pay taxes).

I don’t know aything about precosntruction condos, co take my opinion with a grain of salt. It seems to me, that that would be speculation. Hoping, that the prices will go up by the time the condo is ready. I keep thinking of some of those posters here recently, that bought new construction in Las Vegas and were now stuck upside down, because the builders dropped their prices and were still building.

I’m sure others here will give you more informed comments.

Michaela

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by ken in sc

Posted by ken in sc on August 26, 2005 at 06:46:56:

Full time doing what? Pre-construction condos only? That may or may not last. I would not do what you are thinking of if I did not have a plan and some experience doing the things in the plan. For example, if you were going to do full time rehabs, you would want to have done at least your first few rehabs so that you know that you can be succesful doing those and what income they bring you. If not, you will likely spend a good bit of your 300-400K profit on just living while you go through the learning curve.

Make that plan for your full time REOI biz. Tnen, while you continue to work, do part time what you wish to do full time and get some of the learning out of the way. What’s another year on the job to assure your success and keep your net worth the same.

Ken

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by ski

Posted by ski on August 27, 2005 at 19:24:16:

I live here in sunny swfla on the west coast. Mainly the buyers are coming from the east coast where the values are really inflated. They are causing our values to do the same. Good for me, not good for the near future buyers. The artificually inflated values are causing a population shift. There are no longer properties thart a working family can afford. We are seeing a lot of babyboomers investing here. Again, good for me. I have had properties here for te last 3.5 years and have seen values go sky high. I bought a house here about 1.5 years ago for 103k. Rehabbed it at a cost of 5k. Sold it 4 months ago for 215k. It is now (today) on the market for 280k. How much longer can this go on?? look at CA…

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by John Sheridan

Posted by John Sheridan on August 26, 2005 at 11:36:13:

Let’s suppose that your net wealth is approximately $250K after taxes. You want to turn that into $1 million in 8 years. That implies 19% average yearly return.

Is this realistic? In the financial markets, a consistent return of 19% yearly would be phenomenal. Is RE that much better, so that you can hope for 19% each year for 8 years in a row?

Re: Question for full-timers - Posted by gb-fl

Posted by gb-fl on August 27, 2005 at 15:36:24:

Thanks Ken.

I dont think that is comparable… - Posted by Levi

Posted by Levi on August 26, 2005 at 12:38:52:

I have no opinion on what gb should do, but as an aside, comparing creative RE to the financial markets is apples to oranges. Most of the people here operate RE as their business, not passive investing, so the returns are much greater. Don’t forget about the effect of leverage either.

Re: I dont think that is comparable… - Posted by MatthewC

Posted by MatthewC on August 26, 2005 at 19:15:38:

Quite right. It isn’t about how much time you put in per week. It is about the results you get.

Most people want to be in the real estate business, not real estate investing. The investing portion is largely boring and repetitive.

I am simultaneously growing my portfolio but put in a minimal amount of my time. I spend time delegating much of the management. Even when I did it all in the beginning, I rarely spent 40 hours a week on it. It is not about filling my time with things to do.

The “returns” many people talk about are not really returns in the investment sense. They are “profits” taxed at ordinary income rates.

Like rehabbing… pure business venture. Very little passive income and certainly not taxed at passive income rates. Rehabbing is mostly a real estate business, not a real estate investment.