Lease Option Wraps - Posted by Kristine-CA

Posted by GL - ON on February 23, 2003 at 21:18:34:

No he can’t. Once the property is transferred to the trust, the trust is the owner and the trustee is in control.

The new deed (to the trust) is registered at the courthouse. No one in his right mind will give the owner a mortgage on property he does not own. The trust owns it.

All transactions concerning the property must go through the trustee. If you are the trustee then you are in control and no one can borrow against the property without your consent. He can’t sell it either because the title search will turn up the fact that it is in trust and they will know only the trustee has the right to sell it.

Lease Option Wraps - Posted by Kristine-CA

Posted by Kristine-CA on February 22, 2003 at 17:46:21:

If I buy with an L/O and sell on an L/O, what exactly am I selling? I don’t own anything except the right to buy.

Wouldn’t my buyer be in a disadvantageous position? If I don’t exercise my option or die or whatever, my buyer has nothing but a contract to buy from someone who doesn’t own. Not to mention if the seller messes up and a lender forecloses, etc.

This has always confused me. Any clarifying thoughts appreciated.

Sincerely, Kristine

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by Jim FL

Posted by Jim FL on February 22, 2003 at 18:14:07:

Kristine,
I’m sure you know there are risks with ANY kind of real estate deal.
With a sandwich lease option, as you desribed, some of those risks are what you mentioned.
What if your seller fails to perform, the loan does not get paid, the house gets leins attached, the lender forecloses, the house burns down, the seller tries to back out etc.
Lots of little things that COULD go wrong.

However, there are ways to minimize this risk.
When you sign a lease option agreement with a seller, it is wise to get a deed to be held in escrow, so closing can be done easier when need be.
Also, recording a performance mortgage is a good idea.
With this recorded, you create a lein on the property, thus protecting your position.
Should the seller fail to perform, you can foreclose and get clear title to pass on to your buyers.
Should the seller try to refinance, or sell to someone else, the title company involved will find your recorded performance mortgage and contact you for a payoff.
Your performance mortgage will be senior to any other leins the sellers tries to have attached, and probably would prevent them from a refinance, or second mortgage being taken out.

A performance mortgage also can help you deal with the “Title seasoning issue” some lenders may have, when your buyers get financing.
They may want to seller with your buyers to be on title for a certain length of time.
Since you are not, this becomes an issue.
So, to handle that, with the performance mortgage recorded, you can simply assign your agreement with the buyers to the seller.
When the closing takes place, the title company finds your performance mortgage recorded, and contacts you for a payoff.
This will be the difference between your sale price with the seller, and the sale price with your buyer.

A lease option just as one agreement, with nothing recorded does leave you open to some risk.
This is why I now use a performance mortgage and a deed held in escrow for EVERY lease option deal I sign…which is not many these days…I buy more subject to than anything else.

As for making sure the payments are made, this is easy.
I have a “Company policy” which states that we send payments directly to the lender.
My lease option agreement even has a clause outlining this fact, and further states that the seller will give me “in writing”, permission to access information from the lender for the purpose of verification and managing the account.

I used to just have this as a company policy, and not in the agreement.
Then on one deal, a seller realized how much we were selling the house for to our buyers, because they apparently had a mutual aquaintence, and tried to get out of the deal.
They contacted a lawyer asking to get out of the agreement.
Basically, once the lawyer found the performance motgage recorded, he advised them they were in the deal for the duration.
However, he did make a stink about payments being sent to the lender direct, and DEMANDED we start sending them to the seller instead.
Not liking this, we met with the seller and her attorney, and decide to go ahead and mail them to the seller, but with the check made out to the lender.
They refused to pay for, or use a contract collection company or my attorney.
So, the new clause was added.

Lease options do have risk, just like any deal, but there are ways to make them more secure.

Anyway, hope this helps,
Jim FL

Re: The right to buy - Posted by Ed Copp

Posted by Ed Copp on February 22, 2003 at 18:05:35:

is exactly what you are selling.

A well written L/O contract will cover all the bases and contingencies, including the proper clouding of the title.

A poorly written agreement can be a nightmare, if only a few parts are missing. Good luck.

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by NewREguy

Posted by NewREguy on February 22, 2003 at 18:34:09:

Jim,

When you do subject to deals how do stop the former seller from refinancing or put liens on the property?
I don’t see how this can be safer than lease options.

People can literraly refinance or get a loan over the phone these days.

Thanks

J. Berg

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)

Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on February 22, 2003 at 19:41:28:

New R E Guy---------------

When doing a “subject to” deal the former owner of the property deeds all interest in the property to you–or, for the sophisticated, a trust, which will have you as either the trustee or the beneficiary. One they have deeded to you, there is no way they can do anything financial involving the property, such as putting on a new loan–the former owner(s) have no ownership interest in the property anymore. Similarly, anybody putting a lien against the former owner will NOT have a lien against their former house, as the “subject to” buyer is the owner.

Good Investing**Ron Starr

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by NewREguy

Posted by NewREguy on February 22, 2003 at 23:52:07:

But how would a new bank/lender know that the “subject to” buyer is the owner when all documents are still recorded under the former owner’s name?

Isn’t one of the reasons for using subject to is to hide ownership? Could hiding ownership work in favor of dishonest sellers?

Finally, what happens if you don’t record the trust ownership at all?

Thank you for your help, Ron.

J. Berg

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)

Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on February 23, 2003 at 01:17:50:

New R E Guy9----------------

What ever made you think that the public record makes it look like the former owner is still the owner.

The person who buys “subject to” the old loan would record either their deed to them or else the deed from the old owner to the trustee of the trust. Once the former owner has deeded away–either to the new owner or to the trustee, the former owner will have no ownership interest and the public record would show that.

Good InvestingRon Starr

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by NewREguy

Posted by NewREguy on February 23, 2003 at 01:48:49:

Ron,

I’m sorry for the confusion but I was under the assumption that investors buy subject to so that they can hide ownership of property. Because of DOS?

Why would investors record the deed if it’s going to trigger DOS?

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)

Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on February 23, 2003 at 02:10:56:

New R. E. Guy--------------

Maybe they have talked to the lender and the lender has said that they are not going to call the loan due.

Maybe the buyer is willing to take the risk that the lender will find out about the new ownership and is not too worried about the loan being called due.

The remedy, when the loan is called, is for the lender to do a foreclosure on the loan. Maybe this is a state where it takes near a year to foreclose and there is a long right of redemption after that point. The buyer plans to get the property resold before the foreclosure can be completed. Or refinanced.

I don’t think you should assume that the buyer will leave the record looking like the former owner is still the owner, for the reason that you cited, you don’t want the former owner to borrow against the property or to have liens filed against him/her/them which would attach to the property.

If the deed is to a trustee, that is probably as good for the buyer as getting a direct deed, and would likely not tip off the lender.

Good InvestingRon Starr

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by NewREguy

Posted by NewREguy on February 23, 2003 at 12:28:09:

Why wouldn’t the lender be tipped off? After all the deed is now in the trust’s name. The former lender will notice the name on the deed is different from
the former owners name.

This is not an assumption it’s a fact that the names will be diferent.

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by GL - ON

Posted by GL - ON on February 23, 2003 at 08:47:52:

If you put the deed into a trust and then register the transfer to the trust it does not trigger the DOS because this is a common estate planning move.

The buyer or his agent (lawyer, title co) becomes the trustee.

You can then transfer ownership of the trust without triggering the DOS.

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by GL - ON

Posted by GL - ON on February 23, 2003 at 21:31:39:

Of course the lender will be tipped off. You (as trustee) are going to send them a letter informing them that the property has been put into a trust and from now on your office will be handling the payments and all business correspondence must go through you.

They will then do what they do to all lawyers who are handling a property in a trust account, send a dozen dancing girls over with magnums of champaign.

(Just kidding about the champaign. Also the dancing girls)

(Sorry Ron I couldn’t resist)

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)

Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on February 23, 2003 at 21:26:24:

New R. E. Guy------------

No, the lender will not know that there is a new owner. I suggest that you pull some posts from the archive on this topic so you can learn how this works. Put “trust” or “trusts” into the search function at the top of this main bulletin board forum of CREONLINE.COM website, perhaps with “subject to” or “subject 2” or “sj 2” also. This topic has been discussed in great deapth in the past.

You might go into the prior years and read some of Bill Gatten’s posts on the “PACTrusts” or “PACtrusts.”

Good InvestingRon Starr*********

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by NewREguy

Posted by NewREguy on February 23, 2003 at 12:45:19:

GL ( ON ),

Where would you register the transfer to the trust?

Is this done privately or at the recorders office? If you do it privately then how is the world going to know that the investor is the new owner?

Thanks

J. Berg

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by NewREguy

Posted by NewREguy on February 23, 2003 at 12:36:39:

So you are transfering the beneficial interest ( ownership ) without recording it?

Former lender will still see that the name on deed ( 1234 Main trust ) is different from former owner’s name ( John Doe ).

Im a little confused here.

J. Berg

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by GL - ON

Posted by GL - ON on February 23, 2003 at 16:58:56:

Here it is in detail.

Mr. Seller transfers the property to a trust.

The trust becomes the registered owner of the property.

The new deed, to the trust, is registered at the courthouse.

This is all legal and does not trigger the DOS. It is fairly common for tax and estate planning.

The trust becomes the owner of record. All correspondence of a business nature goes to the trustee.

Mr. Seller transfers the trust to Mr. Buyer. This transfer is not registered. The only one who knows about it is the trustee. If you want to be real technical, Mr. Seller does not even have to transfer ownership of the trust. He can sign certain papers that allow the trustee to transfer ownership anytime he wants to. The trustee can hold these papers for Mr. Buyer and if anyone asks, technically, the owner is still Mr. Seller.

Re: Lease Option Wraps - Posted by NewREguy

Posted by NewREguy on February 23, 2003 at 20:38:02:

GL - ON,

One last question please.

You said earlier, “If you want to be real technical, Mr. Seller does not even have to transfer ownership of the trust. He can sign certain papers that allow the trustee to transfer ownership anytime he wants to. The trustee can hold these papers for Mr. Buyer and if anyone asks, technically, the owner is still Mr. Seller.”

Okay, I am the the trustee and also the new buyer ( investor ). If the former owner is still the owner can he go behind my back and refinance without my knowledge? I understand that the trust is the new owner but you just said that technically, the UNREGISTERED transfer, isn’t known by anyone.

So as far as everyone is concerned the former owner is still the owner…BECAUSE IT’S UNREGISTERED. What’s going to stop him from putting liens on the title?

J. Berg