How Does Daughter Get Control of Estate? - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by Marck in Pa on December 01, 2002 at 16:07:03:

I believe the time I heard was 90 days with a possible 90 day extention to get the properties in order.

Please, don’t get me wrong, I have seen the condition of some of those neighborhoods and properties. I agree that something had to be done. I just felt that the way the city inplimented it was wrong.

How Does Daughter Get Control of Estate? - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by IB (NJ) on December 01, 2002 at 07:51:43:

Just got back from meeting with the daughter of a man who’s house is going to Sheriff Sale this Tuesday (12/3). The Father is incoherent and in a nursing home. The daughter DOES NOT have POA over his estate. She admits she’s waited until the last minute to move on this but now wants to try and save the house to either sell it to a family member or to me.

She also states that her Father is INcoherent. Any idea how she would get control of her Father’s estate while he’s in a nursing home AND incoherent? Thanks in advance.

I’m going to check with my attorney on this Monday morning and work so that we can get a postponement of the sale. But any other information I can get on this would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

and don’t forget the 3 year look back… - Posted by David Krulac

Posted by David Krulac on December 01, 2002 at 10:04:55:

the state/medicare/medicade may have in essence an unrecorded ein by virtue of the 3 year look back on any sale of the father if he is receiving any state/medicare/medicaid aid. The lein does not have to be recorded.

David Krulac
Central Pennsylvania

Re: How Does Daughter Get Control of Estate? - Posted by michaela-ATL

Posted by michaela-ATL on December 01, 2002 at 09:14:10:

what you need to do is go and pay the back taxes and redeem the property before the sale. once it goes to sale, there’s a lot of times a 30 or 60 day period (depending on your area) where you can redeem the property after the sale, but it would cost you an extra 25%. so, if you have the funds now to stop the foreclosure, then you need to do that.

i’m not an attorney, but can’t the daughter have the father declared ? (can’t think of the word right now) by a doctor and then get poa that way?

just my thoughts

If the father was deemed incompetent… - Posted by Ben (NJ)

Posted by Ben (NJ) on December 01, 2002 at 09:13:30:

by the court, then he should have had a court appointed “guardian ad litem” representing his interests. If he did not then the foreclosure judgment itself is very likely defective and can be easily vacated (see Bergen Eastern v Koss) You may have another problem though, state institutional liens. I had a case where I was appointed guardian ad litem for an elderly
incompetent woman who was in tax foreclosure. After looking into it, it turned out tax foreclosure was the least of her problems because she had ten years of institutional liens waiting to gobble up her equity anyway (not that she cared, her main priority was wandering around figuring out who stole her dentures). Check into this first. (no,not the dentures, the state liens!) Don’t win the battle just to lose the war!

Re: and don’t forget the 3 year look back… - Posted by Kristine-CA

Posted by Kristine-CA on December 01, 2002 at 17:12:03:

David: medicare/medicaid debt is still confusing me. Even a probate lawyer on a purchase (with large medicaid debt) I’m trying to close doesn’t explain it very clearly–

If a lien is not recorded, how does it get collected or affect title? Why would the state fail to get a lien? If I go and purchase property from someone and there is title insurance, how on earth does the state collect its debt on this purchase without a lien? When a probate is filed and there is estate debt, I can understand that income coming to the estate will have to be used for that debt. But in the case of someone still alive and with no probated estate, how would anyone know that the seller owes money to the state? This seems so whacky to me.

Who is doing this look back? And and what point?

Sincerely, Kristine

Re: and don’t forget the 3 year look back… - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by IB (NJ) on December 01, 2002 at 14:21:17:

Thanks David. I’m assuming these liens would be senior and thus paid by whoever picks this up at the auction?

I guess I should ask the daughter if the Father is receiving Medicare/Medicaid. This would give me a good indication of whether or not there are liens against the prop.

Way off… - Posted by Ben (NJ)

Posted by Ben (NJ) on December 01, 2002 at 09:27:59:

luv ya, Michaela, but first of all, no one said this was a tax foreclosure. Tax foreclosures don’t go to sheriff’s sale unless there is a federal lien involved. Even if it was, IB cannot walk into the tax collector’s office and pay the lien because he has no legal interest in the property (ie, owner, mortgagee, tenant,etc). The collector would refuse the redemption funds.

Re: If the father was deemed incompetent… - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by IB (NJ) on December 01, 2002 at 14:17:52:

Thanks Ben. For a minute there I was about the search the archives for ‘dentures’ :slight_smile:

Are you saying I will have to do a title search to find out if there are institutional liens against the property? If so, how does that relate to what David stated above (3 year lookback with no requirement to record any liens - I think I remember this correctly). Can those surface in a title search?

And how will I know if a “guardian ad litem” has been appointed? The lis pendens has the father listed as the defendant. Now that I think of it, the daughter did mention that the court stated that the father’s children could stay in the home as long as the Father was alive. Of course the daughter didn’t have a copy of any court order in her possession so I could get the details.

These people have no money. So if I’m going to fork over the money for a search, they’d have to agree to sell to me first.

the process is handled in many different ways… - Posted by David Krulac

Posted by David Krulac on December 02, 2002 at 12:30:08:

mostly all sloppy. Most of the time around here there are no recorded leins on the property. but if your dealing with a vacant house, and the owner is older and in some home, then there is an indication of a possible problem.

And its creating a new occurance of the elderly and their families abandoning their equity in house, because they can never collect on it. The whole process IMHO is counterporductive to society. Houses sit abandoned, neglected and deteriating, for many years. I’ve personally seen houses empty for 10 years or more. Many of then are free and clear of any mortgages.

One example that I looked at this year was the home of a woman 108 years old who had the house built in 1952 and was in a home for the last 10 years. The frame house was peeling paint all over the exterior, the roof leaked and needed replaced, the basement took in water, and there were tree saplings growing in the rain gutters. The house was mess and getting worse as each day, week, month, and year took its toll on this house. the boiler didn’t work, there was no hot water and the house had never been connected to the public sewer. There was no mortgage and the only recorded lein was the sewer connection, and service leins. But the county had to sign the sales contract and approve the sale price. No matter waht the sale price was the owner was to get NOTHING, as her nursing bills for the last 10 years exceeded 100% of the equity in the house.

The looking back is usually done by the county or state agency charged with administering nursing care for any body not able to pay their own. People in nursing, assisted living, retirement homes who are paying their own way are not subject to this unrecorded lein. The government has the authority to garnish a person’s equity if they are receiving any government assistance.

There used to be welfare leins, but they were challenged in court as being discrimitory as they were only levied on real estate owners on welfare, not on tenants on welfare. before that change there was situations where the welfare leins exceeded the equity in the property and the owner couldn’t sell with paying off the leins. That was a mess too.

As far as title insurance, they can except certian potential claims and usually there is a clause in the title insurance policy that if there is something that you, the buyer know about that is also excluded from coverage. So if you know of a potential nursing unrecorded lein and don’t tell the title insurance they can refuse claims about that issue.

Since many of the owners are still living there is no probate of living people. If you are buying a property and have to go to a nursing home to get the seller’s signature then there could be a lein. If a relative has POA and the owner is in a nursing home there could be a lein. The government checks deed transfers as they know the assets of their client base. And they don’t have to be in any hurry as they can come back to you 3 years later. And they have the authority to challenge the sale price as being “inadequate”.

David Krulac
Central Pennsylvania

Re: Way off… - Posted by Marck in Pa

Posted by Marck in Pa on December 01, 2002 at 10:10:21:

QUOTE:“IB cannot walk into the tax collector’s office and pay the lien because he has no legal interest in the property (ie, owner, mortgagee, tenant,etc). The collector would refuse the redemption funds.” :ENDQUOTE

Ummm, This must depend on the state/jurisdiction. My sister recently paid off 3 years of back taxes on an abandoned property and took ownership of said property, it was not a tax forclosure sale, but there is something on the books here in Pa regarding this type of thing. I also know that if you pay the taxes on a property for 7 years you can claim ownership and you can have the property deed put into your name. I did that with a 4 acre parcel adjacent to my grandmother’s farm when I was about 19.

oops, you’re right - Posted by michaela-ATL

Posted by michaela-ATL on December 01, 2002 at 09:38:01:

i totally forgot about the part where they only take payments from the owner.

‘selective memory’ i guess :wink:


What you need is… - Posted by Ben (NJ)

Posted by Ben (NJ) on December 01, 2002 at 18:18:40:

an upper court judgment search. You can get a quick cheapie search (about $50) done by Society Hill Title
in Parsippany. I’ve never used them but see their ads alot in foreclosure magazines. In fact you can probably pick one up at any 7-11. I’m not familiar with the look-back provisions. Ask David Krulac about that.

Definitely not in NJ… - Posted by Ben (NJ)

Posted by Ben (NJ) on December 01, 2002 at 10:27:10:

which is where I practice tax foreclosure law.I don’t know how other states can permit it either. What’s to stop every Tom, Dick and Harry from walking in the tax collector’s office and for a nominal amount of money, acquiring someone else’s property? Is it first come, first serve? I can’t imagine setting a precedent like that. Furthermore, paying off the taxes would really only constitute a redemption of the tax lien thereby defeating the foreclosure and bringing the taxes current. How would that serve to automatically divest the former owner of his property rights without due process of law? Adverse possession is a different thing which sounds like what you accomplished but I can’t figure out what your sister did.

Re: Definitely not in NJ… - Posted by Marck in Pa

Posted by Marck in Pa on December 01, 2002 at 13:52:26:

The reason she scould do it was because it was an abandoned house, I don’t remember alot about it, but I know I do remember that the fact that it was abandoned and falling into pretty serious disrepair, had alot to do with how she aquired it. I will ask her more when I see her at Christmas, perhaps it’s something regarding “falling apart” houses???

I do know that recently in Scranton and Wilkes-Barre ( local citys) the city started a new thing where if your property is in bad shape ( mostly regarding “slum” type houses/duplex/apartment buildings) The come in, condemn it, take ownership, charge the owner the costs of all repairs, then the city operates it in most cases as a low income rental or homless shelter. I know alot of landlords were up in arms about the new law, thinking that maybe next it will be…“not so pretty” propertys… then up and up from there. Seems a bit 1944 Germany-ish if you ask me.

It might be… - Posted by Nate(DC)

Posted by Nate(DC) on December 01, 2002 at 13:09:51:

That it had gone to tax sale, no one bid, and so it went back to the government…and then sis bought it from the gov’t directly, for the amount of the tax foreclosure.

That is done here in DC…the properties no one bid on at tax sale (they call them “bid-backs” here) you can go into the tax assessor’s office and look at the list…and if you want to buy one, you call up the treasurer and make an offer. Of course, actually getting the offer accepted and buying the property can take months, but that’s just DC gov’t. for you.


you’re talking two different things here… - Posted by David Krulac

Posted by David Krulac on December 02, 2002 at 12:08:17:

first, adverse possession in general is not all that easy, add onto that that in Pa. the time period for adverse possession is 21 years. This is much longer than many other states, CA is only 5 years. For vacnt land/lots there have been court cases that have set precedent for fencin the property to exclude everybody including the record owner. You also need to be hostile to the record owner and if you have permission, that destroys your A/P claim. also if you A/P for 20 years and pay the taxes for 20 years and the record owner comes back before the 21 years expires, they can claim the property and you would not be entitled to any improvements or reimbursement for back taxes even. Very difficult to do.

Secondly many communities have adopted a tough stance against property owner who don’t keep their property in good condition. This is a relative new occurance. They give you notice there is a hearing and if you don’t corrent the defects they seize the property and extinquish your ownership position. It is very dratic and I am not aware of any sucessful court challenges to date.

In one local city they are trying to expand that power to seize a rental property with many police calls to the property for fights, drugs, disorderly, etc. Even though the property is up to city code, they are trying to seize the property because of the bad actor tenants, which are the owners responsibility.

David Krulac
Central Pensylvania

You may be skipping a step or two… - Posted by JT-IN

Posted by JT-IN on December 01, 2002 at 15:27:57:

Such as giving the slum-lord ample opportunity to upgrade their properties, before condemning and taking control of the eyesore. Each community or city must be permitted to establish reasonable minimum standards for which properties must be maintained. Absent that, it can become a jungle, and the human “lions and tigers” take over. This process is equally as bad as your comparison to Nazi Germany… IMHO.

I am not for big government taking over, but for the market (assisted by community standards) regulating what will and won’t exist.