Honesty & intregrity - Posted by J.D.

Posted by Irwin on May 07, 1999 at 20:07:29:

what I was referring to mainly was the attitudes of the people working in government vs mega business. I find that the bigger that businesses get through merger or whatever, the harder it is to deal with the people who run them. From the standpoint of 1) rudeness/arrogance, 2)ineptitude 3)ignorance of their job, and 4) apathy, I think that private business people are rapidly catching up with government, and might very well have surpassed it in some areas, most notably the mortgage banking industry.
Now that said, I hate these kinds of threads, and I regret that I seem to have started one that serves absolutely no purpose but to waste bandwidth. My apologies to JP along with my pledge never to indulge in this wasteful pursuit again.

Honesty & intregrity - Posted by J.D.

Posted by J.D. on May 05, 1999 at 20:04:51:


This site explains exactly how this kind of real estate works. Sickening! Take advantage of poor people, people with bad credit. Is that really how you want to make a living?
Greed is all I see here on this board, if someone tries to ask an honest question, they get bombarded with, “DID YOU DO ANYTHING?” Or “This isn’t make me money, so I DON’T CARE”.
Life revolves around the almight dollar heh? So people who are waitresses and teachers, and police officers, do you think they should rip you off for their services? Maybe they are educated in the ways of con artists! Just because someone is not knowledgable in certain areas, gives no one a RIGHT to take advantage of anyone!

huh? - Posted by hkCA

Posted by hkCA on May 06, 1999 at 13:58:08:

While reading the above-mentioned article, I found myself irritated at the one-sidedness of the author’s observations. A classic case of irresponsible journalism. But I was amused at the end when I read the credits:

an online publication of Intelligent Life Corp.


BUYER BEWARE. - Posted by Redline

Posted by Redline on May 06, 1999 at 13:52:37:

J.D. - I’m sorry you are so limited as to believe everything you read.

Is there fraud in real estate? SURE - just like there’s fraud EVERYWHERE.

Does that mean EVERY investor is fraudulent? NO.
Does that mean EVERY deal is fraudulent? NO.

Buyer beware, my friend. If it weren’t for some of the investors on this board and those around the country like them - there would be MANY more people that would never realize their dream of home ownership.


Re: There’s always a bad apple or two in the basket of life… - Posted by David M. Petrovich

Posted by David M. Petrovich on May 06, 1999 at 12:42:56:

While I agree that there are predatory lending practices and schemes that exploit the financially unsophisticated, most practitioners can work hard and earn a good living without shelving their morality.

In response to a recent posting on behalf of a Client (for those of you who do not recognise my name or philosophy, I operate a proactive, non profit housing counseling organization for those who are financially distressed) I received an offer to refinance a 65% LTV mortgage loan at an unconscienable effective interest rate of 30%…

That stinks.

But I did receive very fair offers, too. And for that, I say thanks.

Re: Honesty & intregrity - Posted by Christina

Posted by Christina on May 06, 1999 at 08:17:46:

It’s sad that you can make such a general statement about so many different types people. I for one, am entirely new to real estate investment. I’m not looking to become a real estate guru. I want to pay off some astronomical student loans and earn enough money to write novels full-time. I’d never treat people poorly, all for the “almighty dollar”.

Please don’t peg us all as greedy. There are a lot of people who are just anxious to have a better life - NOT just financially. For me, I’d be happiest to have the freedom to work for myself, and not be chained to an office 9-5 every day. That’s worth more to me than any amount of money.

Re: Honesty & intregrity - Posted by Tim_AZ

Posted by Tim_AZ on May 05, 1999 at 23:56:56:

Let’s talk about greed. I must admit, until recently, I did not understand the concept of free enterprise. I was simply working jobs to pay the bills, and blaming all my woes on my company. I thought of the CEO types as cold heartless, greedy animals who did not care about anything except their wallet. They were the enemy.

But let’s think about this. Think of every job you’ve ever had in your life. I’m sure a great majority of us have worked for private companies, whether it’s flipping burgers, or designing rockets. These jobs were beneficial to us, because they helped us to pay our bills. But they had to begin somewhere. Someone had an idea. Their idea was to make money. This idea alone may seem greedy and selfish. But this idea also gave birth to many, many jobs for people, and improved their lives. If you’ve ever worked at a job, you’ve benefitted from someone else’s greed. In my opinion, the CEO’s deserve their profits and compensation. They started the business, or grew it, and that benefitted society.

John Stossel of ABC News did an excellent special on greed, and its pros and cons. It opened my eyes to my own jealousy and prejudice against CEO’s. He compared the service you get when you deal with a public organization with that of a private corporation. Do you enjoy going to the post office, or getting your car registered at the DMV? No, you have to wait in line, and the people aren’t very nice. They have no competition, no fear of losing a customer, so they have no motivation to be nice. But if you walk into a McDonalds or a grocery store or any private business, you are treated a lot better, because they know that if you receive bad service, you can simply go to another company and they will lose business.

Just my thoughts.


PS - I have seen the acronym “J.O.B.” tossed around here, but I don’t know what it means. What does it mean?

Geez, You’re Bringing a Tear To My Eye - Posted by Bill K. (AZ)

Posted by Bill K. (AZ) on May 05, 1999 at 23:28:39:


Thanks. I’m going to go on the “straight and narrow” now. You got me. You’ve uncovered my secret. I’m just a sleaze-ball.

I’m going to quit helping people overcome their financial problems. I’m going to quit forcing people to sell me their homes. I’m going to stop bringing mortgages current and keeping foreclosures off of people’s records. I’m going to quit forcing people to make bad choices regarding their finances. And, last but not least, I’m going to stop trying to make a buck. I’m going to go on welfare.

Thanks for clearing it all up for me. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go buy more Kleenex. You write so beautifully. I’m moved to tears.

Bill K. (AZ)

Re: Honesty & intregrity - Posted by Rob FL

Posted by Rob FL on May 05, 1999 at 22:33:45:

In regards to greed, who do you consider more greedy? The guy who has a middle-class house, 2 cars, credit cards maxed out, and him and wife working full time jobs and stuffing their kids in a day care center. Or an investor who has taken the time and energy to master the skills in order to have the same house and cars but no credit cards, no jobs, and no day care. Think really hard about who is really chasing the almighty dollar and neglecting his family.

Search deeply - Posted by PBoone

Posted by PBoone on May 05, 1999 at 22:06:19:

After you have completed the test look deep within yourself and see where in your phyche a negative perception about money may be hidden. Once you find that you will see Honesty and integrity can be and is being administered by those that have lots of money.
I do agree not all.

Similar to VALUE - Posted by PBoone

Posted by PBoone on May 05, 1999 at 22:01:57:

The abovementioned article only speaks of one persons perception at which you apparantly agree with that perception. I have a challange to you.
Call three realtors to get comps on your house do not mention what the other two came up with as value. Now you will probably get 3 different values for your house does that mean the two that you disagree with are being dishonest with you?

Hook, Line, & Sinker - Posted by JPiper

Posted by JPiper on May 05, 1999 at 21:39:30:

I would imagine that most people regard “honesty and integrity” as important topics, worthy of our consideration. I also happen to value personal courage. In connection with that I notice you have used an anonymous email address?.and for that reason I almost didn’t respond. But you bring up a subject which I think is important, and which I think you have misconstrued.

I took a look at the url that you provided, and read the article. You seem to believe that what this article describes is what is being discussed on this site. In other words, if someone on this site mentions the word “lease/option” that this is comparable to what the author is discussing in his article. If an investor has sold a property to someone else with “poor credit” that the investor MUST have taken advantage somehow. If an investor buys a property for $50K and flips it (heaven forbid) that somehow it must then follow that the appraiser was crooked, that the investor is taking advantage, and that the mortgage broker is in cahoots.

I’ve seen all the tactics discussed in the article, and then some. Unfortunately, the same thing is true in the field of real estate investment as is true in the police department, health organizations, and the world at large. Just as we have had police officers and other trusted officials involved in corruption, health organizations guilty of filing false medical claims, we’ve got some bad apples in the real estate investment business. But no one issues blanket indictments such as yours regarding ALL police departments or ALL health organizations. Yes, there are some unethical and illegal happenings in the real estate business?.but this is not a blanket indictment of all real estate investors, or of this website or the vast majority of it’s participants.

A real estate investor’s life need not revolve around “the almighty dollar”. Even real estate investors need and want many things in their lives?.not just a buck. But one thing the investor’s life as an investor better be about is making a profit. With no profit you’re out of business?.quite simple. If by “greed” you meant the “profit motive” then call me guilty. I’m not going to do any deal in which I don’t profit in one sense or another. That’s what business is about. Making a profit doesn’t mean you have to do illegal or unethical things?..but it does mean that you have to set certain standards of what you will pay for a property, and what you will sell it for. Not all people will necessarily like those standards, but for those that have a need to sell, or a need to buy, they will benefit from your business.

Finally, people without knowledge will always fare poorly when compared with people WITH knowledge. This is evident in EVERY walk of life. I can go to one bank here in town and make 2% in a savings account. Right across the street is a bank that pays 4.5%. The bank that pays 2% is one of the largest banks in the city?..and certainly has no lack of depositors. Does this bank make you sick?? Are they unethical?? I don’t think so. People without sufficient knowledge make deposits there?..and because these people didn’t take the time, or make the effort, to determine the possible alternatives for their savings, they then don’t earn the most that they could earn.

Coming back to “people with bad credit”?.certainly they started off the same as everyone else?.with no credit. They made certain choices in their life?.choices to handle their financial affairs irresponsibly. Whose fault is that? At a certain point they may decide they want a house?the American dream. Perhaps you, or someone else, should tell them that they can’t have it, that they should wait, clear their credit up, that they can get better terms if they do. Do you think they’ll listen? My phone rings off the hook with people with credit problems, financially irresponsible people because of their choices. What they want is a house?..and they’re willing to pay a high price with stiff terms for it. That’s reality?.whether you’re sickened by it or not. But when it comes down to it?.I have to take a risk with this person. I’m willing to let them live in my house?.I take a chance with them, a chance that no one else in this system will take?.but I do so under terms that will compensate me for the risks that are presented to me by their financial irresponsibility. While you may be “sickened” I can assure you that most of these people are thrilled to have an opportunity. I’ve been hugged, kissed, referred, etc by these people because they’re thankful for the opportunity. Some of these people fail, because they don’t learn their lessons?.but others succeed, and ultimately build themselves into a better situation.

In my view this article has presented quite a limited picture?.and you took the bait?.hook, line, and sinker.


Give me a break - Posted by Dirk Roach

Posted by Dirk Roach on May 05, 1999 at 21:07:56:

I have to respond in that you quoted part of one of my posts.
Let’s clarify what we are talking about. In my post were I stated that “I don’t care”, and “How is this making me money”, I was referring to my business. That was the contact in which both of those posts were made. The “I don’t care” was in the context of your ongoing bashing of certain persons.
In my business I have no time for excuses. What I do care about are performance and results. If you can’t deliver either of those then don’t waste my time.
As for “How does this make me money?” this is a personal business motto, which I have embraced.
Now that we’ve cleared up business, let’s get personal.
In my household, we do believe in charity. My fiancée gives of her time in the Big Brother Big Sister organization weekly. We are also involved in various Native American Charities.
So sorry J.D. I gave at the office. I do not “Have” to be nice and hand hold every one who comes my way blaming their woes on everyone else.
Now let us talk about Greed. As in the movie Wall Street, I agree with the character Gordon Gecko in his statement of Greed being good. Personally I think it is the single motivating factor behind the advancement of our society.
In fact my friend, you can go to any of the Native Reservation’s anywhere in this country and see the end results of nations, which neither understood nor implemented the concept of greed. Finally they are catching on, about time in my book.
So yes, Greed is needed and encouraged. You live in a society, which is greed oriented. You reap the benefits of it, you ENJOY it. We safely live in a country which had the greatest military strength the world has ever known. We have the privilege of living in a country where we enjoy the highest level of medical technology anywhere in the world. How did this come about? Greed my friend.
I’m not trying to be cruel, but this is simply the way of the world.
So let’s get real and on to business. And quit wasting our time and everyone else time with esoteric, philosophical debates.
Dirk Roach

Re: Honesty & intregrity/opposite point of view - Posted by Irwin

Posted by Irwin on May 06, 1999 at 07:07:26:

Tim: I don’t think your example of government service vs private enterprise applies any more. Some of the fastest most courteous and efficient service I have seen recently have been from the Post Office and our BMV. NOt to mention County officials that I work with all the time. Some of the worst attitude and service has been from private corporations. INMHO, the giant conglomerates have replaced government for inefficiency, rudeness, and just plain don’t give a hoot about their customers attitude. Yes, they know you can go to another company. They also don’t care if you do.
As for the basic posting above, it is pure nonsense and shouldn’t have been responded to by anyone. I just had to throw in my 2 cents on what I think of a lot of private enterprise today.

Re: Give me a break - Posted by dawoud

Posted by dawoud on May 05, 1999 at 21:32:14:

Needs to understand, "Christmas is over and business is business. " In this world Greed is good. Like Gordon says “give me guys that are poor, smart, and hungry, with no feelings”. Hey J.D. if you need a friend get a dog. It’s trench warfare out here.

J.D. stop complainig and get in the game.

Dawoud aka Budd Fox

p.s. Dirk, buy any good Teldar

No, Irwin, I can’t let this slide. - Posted by karp

Posted by karp on May 06, 1999 at 22:16:04:

To compare the arrogance of private big business with the “improved efficiencies” of small government is not a reasonable argument.

Let’s start with the question of choice. If you are not being served by a big business that is arrogant and doesn’t care about you, you can choose not to give them your business.

However, when you have the same level of disservice by government, your choice is removed. I really need to save more money so I decide not to buy a new car. Howver, I cannot skip paying taxes to save money.

Does that make sense?
As long as the relationship is created by force and not by choice, the implicit arrogance and rudeness will always be higher in the government sector.

As far as your argument about the post office, I think it has improved as well, starting about the time it got (45%?) privatized.

I will always use Airborne Express, UPS and Fed Ex where possible just to vote against subsidized “market efficiency”…