Glossary anomolies - Posted by Andy

Posted by Bill H on February 19, 2006 at 13:37:22:

So as to not confuse the issue any further…there is no grantor on a promissory note…there is payor and a Payee…the Payor is the person paying the note and the Payee is the person receiving the $$$.

As to the lender needing an interest in the proerty…the note does not provide that…it is an unrecorded piece of paper and is considered personal property. Merely a “Promise to Pay.”

The lender is secured by the terms and conditions of the Deed of Trust…which is recorded.

If you are buying ans selling notes yhou are dealing in personal property and not real property. You do not have to worry about grantors and grantees, mortgagors and morgagees, trustors and trustees…let alone beneficiarirs.

Good Luck,
Bill H

Good Luck,
Bill H

Glossary anomolies - Posted by Andy

Posted by Andy on February 19, 2006 at 11:36:12:

I admit it, I’m vastly confused. In the glossary on this site by William Bronchick, the term Grantor/Grantee Index is defined, and the definition further includes definitions for the terms grantor and grantee. I’ve copied it here - in part - to highlight those things that are causing me great confusion.

"The most common document recording indexing system is by grantor (the person conveying an interest, usually the seller or mortgagor) and grantee (the person receiving an interest, usually the buyer or mortgagee). "

So, the grantor is the seller of the property and the buyer is the grantee. So far, so good. But it also states that the grantor is the mortgagor and the grantee is the mortgagee - which is where the confusion comes in. The mortgagor is also known as the borrower (from other definitions I’ve seen elsewhere), and the mortgagee is also known as the lender. But the mortgagee (lender) could also be the grantor (seller) if it’s an owner financed property.

So, how can the seller be the borrower and the buyer be the lender? That does not compute.

I bring up these things for a simple reason. I’ve been searching high & low for a good definition of grantor, because on my contract to purchase a mortgage Note, the language is used - and it doesn’t make sense on my contract either!

My contract states "The Seller agrees to sell and assign the said Note and Deed of Trust without recourse as to the future financial performance of the Grantor(s) and assumes no responsibility or liability relating thereto. "

Shouldn’t this actually say, “… future financial performance of the payor/borrower/mortgagor/grantee” ??? And yet because of the above defintions, if the grantee is the lender then neither grantor nor grantee is the correct terminology and yet it seems at least one should be. So can you see why I’m lost & confused? Help!

Re: Glossary anomolies - Posted by Natalie-VA

Posted by Natalie-VA on February 26, 2006 at 12:56:48:

Andy,

I think you’ve already sorted out your confusion, but I just wanted to clarify a bit…

In my opinion (and I’m not an attorney), you are talking about two different relationships:

One is the relationship between the buyer and seller (the grantor and grantee). The seller is granting the deed to the buyer.

The other is the relationship between the lender and the borrower (who also happens to be the buyer). The borrower (grantor) is granting a mortgage to a lender (grantee).

So, in a real estate transaction, the buyer can be the grantee of a deed while being the grantor of a mortgage.

I don’t know if this helps or not, but it’s my best shot.

–Natalie

Re: Glossary anomolies - Posted by Bill H

Posted by Bill H on February 19, 2006 at 12:15:36:

Lets see if I can take this apart and assist you.

"The most common document recording indexing system is by grantor (the person conveying an interest, usually the seller or mortgagor) and grantee (the person receiving an interest, usually the buyer or mortgagee). "

This just says that they will index by buyers and sellers…they gotta index by something in order to find it later and buyer and seller are most appropiate.

So, the grantor is the seller of the property and the buyer is the grantee. So far, so good. But it also states that the grantor is the mortgagor and the grantee is the mortgagee - which is where the confusion comes in. The mortgagor is also known as the borrower (from other definitions I’ve seen elsewhere), and the mortgagee is also known as the lender. But the mortgagee (lender) could also be the grantor (seller) if it’s an owner financed property.

Yes, in that scenario for an instant, as it is being recorded, the seller is the grantor…and as soon as the recorder stamps it if they are carrying the paper they become the mortgagee…nothing difficult or unusal here.

So, how can the seller be the borrower and the buyer be the lender? That does not compute.

Sure doesn’t you got the two mixed up except for the instant mentioned above.

I bring up these things for a simple reason. I’ve been searching high & low for a good definition of grantor, because on my contract to purchase a mortgage Note, the language is used - and it doesn’t make sense on my contract either!

Could be because a mortgage note is PERSONAL property and NOT real property.

My contract states "The Seller agrees to sell and assign the said Note and Deed of Trust without recourse as to the future financial performance of the Grantor(s) and assumes no responsibility or liability relating thereto. "

Take out the word “Grantor” and replace it with “Payor’s” (Person making payments on the note)…you have left the realm of real property and gone into buying and selling personal property.

Shouldn’t this actually say, “… future financial performance of the payor/borrower/mortgagor/grantee” ??? And yet because of the above defintions, if the grantee is the lender then neither grantor nor grantee is the correct terminology and yet it seems at least one should be. So can you see why I’m lost & confused? Help!

See above.

Good Luck,
Bill H

Re: Glossary anomolies - Posted by Andy

Posted by Andy on February 19, 2006 at 13:25:30:

Thanks for the effort Bill, but I think you’ve missed my point(s).

First, there was no confusion about the index. I merely included that portion so as to have a basis for context.

My statement “But the mortgagee (lender) could also be the grantor (seller) if it’s an owner financed property.” was merely added to point that fact out. As you agreed, there was nothing unusual in MY statement. It was a statement of fact, not a question.
I probably should not have included that statement since it just muddied the water. I apologize for that.

Yet, when it came to the actual question I had, you indicated that I mixed up the words. No, I simply copied what Bill Bronchick has written in the glossary included on this site, and then pointed out what seems to be a discrepancy. I’m glad you agree that there is a discrepancy.

My question: “So, how can the seller be the borrower and the buyer be the lender? That does not compute.”

Was based entirely on Bill Bronchick’s definition, specifically “grantor (the person conveying an interest, usually the seller or mortgagor) and grantee (the person receiving an interest, usually the buyer or mortgagee).”

So to rephrase what BILL says, so that there’s no confusion:
Grantor = seller
Grantor = mortgagor
OTHER definitions I’ve seen elsewhere state:
Mortgagor = borrower (See Mortgagor legal definition of mortgagor as just one example. Many others are available.)

Therefore, if the Grantor is synonomous with the Mortgagor as BILL states, yet the Mortgagor is synonomous with the Borrower as other resources state, then logic would dictate that the Grantor and Borrower are synonomous. Hence: Grantor = Borrower. Substituting yet more synonyms to make this still more obvious: Seller=Grantor and Mortgagor=Borrower therefore, Seller=Borrower. And that makes no sense.

Now that I’ve spent additional time typing this up and further analyzing it, I think I can answer my own question.

Bill was not using Grantor and Mortgagor as synonyms which is how I originally interpreted his statements, he was using them as alternatives.

To make this more clear, if I take his original definition “grantor (the person conveying an interest, usually the seller or mortgagor)” and rephrase it this way: “grantor (the person conveying an interest - such person is usually the seller, though the person conveying interest could also be the mortgagor”, then it becomes more clear that he was not using the terms grantor, seller and mortgagor as synonyms which is how I originally interepreted it, he was actually trying to say that the grantor could be either the seller or the borrower. To beat this horse to death a bit more, if one pictures a chair with the word “grantor” on it, and then has first the seller and then the borrower sit down in the chair, it becomes more clear as to what he was saying. To rephrase it one last time - the person conveying interest can be the seller, or the person conveying interest can be the borrower.

And the flip side of the coin - the person receiving an interest can be the buyer or the person receiving an interest can be the lender. Whichever person receives the interest, be they buyer or lender, that person is known as the grantee.

So in my contract which states "The Seller agrees to sell and assign the said Note and Deed of Trust without recourse as to the future financial performance of the Grantor(s) and assumes no responsibility or liability relating thereto. "

It’s really saying that the person sitting in the Grantor’s chair is the borrower, as the borrower is the one conveying interest in the property to the lender - also known as the holder (or in my case buyer)of the note.

Which I think may make sense, because the lender needs an interest in the property in order to secure his money. I’m willing to convince myself of that unless someone can show me why that’s wrong?

Thank you