Don't Form A Corporation To Buy Real Estate - Posted by Adam (Austin, TX)

Posted by Trandle on August 13, 2002 at 09:35:24:

James,
My main thrust was that different intended strategies imply different entity structures. And these strategies have numerous factors for consideration such as privacy, taxes, liquidation, liability, etc., etc.

My response was based on the premise that Adam is just getting going and I assumed he didn’t already have a ton of properties.

Again, I’m not offering advice as an attorney or CPA, but my personal opinion is that C corps are WAY over-hyped for the beginning investor for their dealer entity. The additional advantages of a C over an S require serious cash coming in for one to put these advantages to use. Without the cash and thus, the additional benefits, an S corp is preferable for tax treatment in my opinion. Additionally, converting from an S to a C requires much less future hassle than the reverse.

If Adam is selling on L/O’s to semi-qualified candidates who have a high likelihood of cashing him out within the next year or two, the franchise tax imposed on Texas LLC’s will probably make the LLC an expensive choice for a keeper entity. On the other hand, if he’s just leasing or lease optioning to folks who have little chance of buying the home, an LLC may be a better choice.

Hopefully, that clarifies my position. Perhaps someday UBIT will be a personal concern for me, but right now my self-directed Roth is idle and cash is for operational expenses.

Don’t Form A Corporation To Buy Real Estate - Posted by Adam (Austin, TX)

Posted by Adam (Austin, TX) on August 12, 2002 at 14:20:12:

I just got off the phone with my accountant. And while I didn’t have time to discuss this issue in detail with her, she very firmly suggested that I DO NOT set up a corporation to buy property with, but rather an LLC.

Something about double taxation.

Anybody agree? Disagree?

  • Adam.

Mostly Lease Options and Subject To’s… - Posted by Adam (Austin)

Posted by Adam (Austin) on August 12, 2002 at 20:04:24:

Thanks, guys!

  • A.

wrong answer. - Posted by Les Gee

Posted by Les Gee on August 12, 2002 at 19:49:15:

Adam writes: …she very firmly suggested that I DO NOT set up a corporation to buy property with, but rather an LLC. Something about double taxation.

Les replies: you got to be kidding. Double taxation only occurs if you take out dividends. Who says you have to take out dividends?

As everyone has suggested, you need to tell us what you are trying to do, how much you are making, and with the corp or LLC each yr. Taxation is a very personal situation that the professional advisor can not blindly suggest with rules of thumbs.

(ex preparer of about 1000 returns.)

Read Hyre’s suggestion again… - Posted by TRandle

Posted by TRandle on August 12, 2002 at 18:24:50:

Adam,
You don’t describe what you plan to do with the real estate so no one here could possibly offer valid advice.

In Texas your LLC will be subject to a 4.5% (I believe) franchise tax if gross receipts for the year reach 150k. There are some exceptions and exemptions, of course, but there are many situations where having an LLC is NOT advisable in Texas.

So, I would suggest getting advice from a CPA who knows real estate investing backwards and forwards. It will make a difference in our state. I ignored some of my CPA’s (I was one as well so, of course, I knew better, yeah right!) advice and I’ve paid dearly for it. The type of entity is VERY dependent on your strategy.

Here’s my layman advice…

  1. keepers with very few cashouts - LLC as beneficiary
  2. keepers with cycling cashouts - LP as beneficiary
  3. short, term cash deals - S corp as beneficiary and once the money is coming in by the truckload, THEN convert to a C corp

HTH

Re: Don’t Form A Corporation To Buy Real Estate - Posted by Steve

Posted by Steve on August 12, 2002 at 18:14:52:

I’m just in the process of buying my very first investment property, and know very little about the alternative legal forms. I was just going to run the building as a schedule C sole-proprietorship. Is there some reason an LLC is preferable to a schedule C?

Re: Don’t Form A Corporation To Buy Real Estate - Posted by JHyre in Ohio

Posted by JHyre in Ohio on August 12, 2002 at 17:39:58:

Depends on what you are doing with the real estate. The general rule is LLC to hold, and corporation (C or S) to flip…though in TX, Limited Partnership may be worthwhile to get around franchise tax.

John Hyre

Re: Don’t Form A Corporation To Buy Real Estate - Posted by Jay

Posted by Jay on August 12, 2002 at 16:08:04:

The only thing that I’ve come across concerning C-Corporations is if your company is defined as a “personal service” company, you may be given a flat tax rate of 35%.

Re: Don’t Form A Corporation To Buy Real Estate - Posted by ccreed

Posted by ccreed on August 12, 2002 at 16:03:43:

I would agree with your acct. to a point. We conduct one of our RE partnerships in an LLC. The overhead and tax treatment of C corps. can be prohibitive. The LLC has its pluses and minuses. If I had a do-over I would be strongly inclined to hold RE in a land trust. These are variously called Illinois land trusts after the state which created a lot of the statutes that became a model. Not being an atty. I couldn’t say whether the land trust is now generally standardized like the UCC. (“Generally” meaning “everywhere but Louisiana”.)

In any case, it’s just a trust. So there are some complications and red tape. But I think it could be the best vehicle for RE holdings, from the standpoint of privacy, flexibility and liability.

One area where being an LLC has hurt us is that there’s no pro se appearance in court. Which means every time we have an eviction that goes to trial, we have to hire an attorney. Fortunately we have an atty. who cuts us some slack for doing the filing and legwork ourselves, but it still costs us $200 a pop to put our shiny scrubbed faces in front of the bench. AND we have to show up personally anyway, we don’t get a bye ‘because my attorney is handling it’. Worst of all possible worlds. But the LLC is a pass-through entity?a partnership for tax purposes.

One nice thing you can do is sell the interest in a trust or LLC without disturbing the title to the underlying RE asset. Yeah, yeah, due on sale, blah blah blah. It?s well established in law (but don?t ask me for citations) that interest in a trust is personal property, not realty, EVEN IF the asset is realty. And you can do clever stuff like sell a partial interest and retain some equity participation, with maybe a buyout agreement down the road, if you?re into complication. (N.B. record the agreement.)

Bill Gatten has more to say about this in his PACTrust materials.

The thing about double taxation is, well, you have to consider how much money is flowing through the entities. For example, it could be that your corp. winds up being taxed at a lower rate because its net profits were lowered by, among other things, salaries and benefits paid to you and yours. Depending on where that puts your personal tax bracket, it could be a winner. Then there’s the matching contribution of the Social Insecurity Tax & etc. It gets complicated. Plus there are all of these government fees when you incorporate. It’s a hassle. And as for liability, you still need an umbrella policy. Piercing the corporate veil is cake for bounty-hunting attys. My understanding is that trusts are less penetrable. Mostly because the truly rich have been using them to shield their assets for so long there’s a well developed body of case law to support them. Which is one reason why practically nobody makes any real money suing the Kennedys despite all of the contretemps they get involved in.

Well enough of this free seminar. Gotta go make some money…

–CR

Re: Don’t Form A Corporation To Buy Real Estate - Posted by Mark (SDCA)

Posted by Mark (SDCA) on August 12, 2002 at 15:20:36:

Bronchick is the expert in this area.
He has long advised LLCs for Buy and Hold (rentals)
and a corporation for flips.

Mark

Re: Don’t Form A Corporation To Buy Real Estate - Posted by Steve(CPA)

Posted by Steve(CPA) on August 12, 2002 at 15:08:22:

While I do not know the details of your situation. Generally, LLC’s are better for small businesses and investors rather than a full blown C-Corporation (which is what I’m assuming she was talking to you about). LLC’s and S-Corp’s are a much better way to start any real estate investment program generally. Although, everyone’s situation is different, but in general she is correct.

Re: Mostly Lease Options and Subject To’s… - Posted by JHyre in Ohio

Posted by JHyre in Ohio on August 12, 2002 at 20:23:15:

General rules of thumb: HOW the L/O’s are structured on the selling end is important…if it looks like a sale from the get go, then a flipping entity is probably appropriate. If, on the other hand, the L/O’s are rarely exercised, your business resembles a rental business with an occaisonal sale, so an LLC (or LP in TX) is probably best.

John Hyre

Re: wrong answer. - Posted by Tom J

Posted by Tom J on January 03, 2003 at 12:15:26:

I have a question about 300 acres that myself and 5 freinds are looking to buy in MO. The cost is $1,000 per acre and we are trying to figure out if it would be best to set up an LLC or an S corp. The property will only be used as recreational and some limited farming. It is raw ground, no structures.

Or we are trying to figure if it would be better for each to get their own home equity loan and bring their money and we do a cash deal.

Any thoughts on advice.

Thanks in advance

Re: Read Hyre’s suggestion again… - Posted by James Buster

Posted by James Buster on August 12, 2002 at 21:51:44:

>1. keepers with very few cashouts - LLC as beneficiary
>2. keepers with cycling cashouts - LP as beneficiary

Why the distinction? What are you trying to accomplish?

>3. short, term cash deals - S corp as beneficiary and once the money is coming in by the truckload, THEN convert to a C corp

What I’ve read suggests the reverse. What’s your scoop? If you’re incurring lots of short-term gain, I’d suggest a pass-through entity in a Roth IRA, assuming you can structure your deals to avoid UBIT.