Posted by Rich-CA on September 11, 2007 at 07:09:08:
This is outstanding advice.
discrimination - Posted by thedude
Posted by thedude on September 10, 2007 at 05:45:14:
Hi
If all other things are equal, can a landlord choose a single person over a family of 5 to put less pressure on the septic system with out discriminating?
Would it be prudent to tell people that you are only accepting single or couples?
the dude
Re: discrimination - Posted by Rich-CA
Posted by Rich-CA on September 10, 2007 at 13:23:29:
I am not sure which way I would go. Families tend to move around less, and so make better longer term tenants.
BUT you can NOT ever say you won’t take anyone because they have children. That violates Federal Housing laws in a way that there is no defending yourself against. You can restrict to the elderly, but only if your property is in a building or development designated for “retirement”. You can restrict occupancy to 2 persons per bedroom, this is pretty normal and generally accepted (though I think the guideline is 2 per BR plus one, if applied the same to all your properties, 2 per BR should hold).
You could put a flow meter on the sewage line and charge for excess flows because you have to have the system cleaned out more often. There is nothing wrong with offsetting additional costs. I do not think you can ask for a higher deposit because that many people will be much “harder” on the property than a single person.
If there are 3 BR, you could remove the door to one of the BR and market the property as 2BR plus home office space (that would be 4 people max based on the 2 per BR).
Oh, and does the family of 5 have two incomes, and can each of the incomes cover the rent? if so, you’re better off with them as a single person who loses a job will have to move.
Discrim is Tricky - Posted by Jimmy
Posted by Jimmy on September 10, 2007 at 08:17:29:
I’m not sure the septic capacity is the best reason, but if its true, it would not seem to be discrimination.
if you have a 2 bedroom, and you want no more than 4 people in the place, you are probably ok.
if you have decided to refuse all Section 8 tenants, you better look out. some states (the most liberal ones) treat Section 8 tenants as a protected class. in other states, you can get in trouble under general principles of HD. if the class of Section 8 voucher holders is 85% female, 82% AA, 69% single moms, and 61% all-of-the-above…you can find yourself staring down the shotgun of a plaintiff’s lawyer.
I would love to have nothing but elderly tenants. But to exclude non-elderly is a form af age discrimination. I don’t want to go there.
SO, what’s a landlord to do. Take the first qualified tenant you find. if they have the deposit, have a job with enough income, get a decent reference from the prior landlord, have no serious criminal record—they are in.
Re: discrimination - Posted by Frank Chin
Posted by Frank Chin on September 10, 2007 at 08:16:10:
TheDude:
People seem to make a big deal out of this.
I normally keep a time period open for applicants to see the place, a week, a weekend, whatever, and decide. I seldom tell the tenants on what hasis, so if they ask, I say “qualified people who would be happy to stay for a while.”
I was told when I started that eveything being equal, I have to select the very first qualified. I did that on the very first tenant I selected for the very first rental. Turned out to be an obnoxious women, argued with me on everything. After I took her deposit, called her back, and returned it.
I had another dozen people that weekend I like better, that I rather rent to. I figured, why make myself miserable. Since then, I rented to the one I consider best suited.
Turned out that under the law, I did nothing wrong, but I didnt know it at the time. In NYC, an exception is made to the fair housing laws if the owner lives in a unit of a 1-4 famliy house, and i can pick and choose anyone I like since I lived there.
I don’t number my applications. Sometimes when i get the sense that someone feels he should get it first because he came first during the interview, I schedule him last. And if I prefer a single guy versus a family, I would schedule the family late in the day, or the next day, and the single guy the first of the day.
This way, IF someone comes after me, I can honestly say. “but the single guy came first”. BUT in 25 years, I never had a complaint. The key is to give everyone respect when you talk to them.
Frank Chin
Re: discrimination - Posted by Natalie-VA
Posted by Natalie-VA on September 10, 2007 at 07:47:52:
Dude,
I’m not an attorney. You CANNOT discriminate against prospective tenants based on “familial status”.
On the other hand, maybe you have some local ordinances that can help you out. Does your locality have a limit on the amount of people that can live under that roof based on the number of bedrooms or the septic system?
If not, maybe the single person gave you the application and deposit first?
–Natalie
Re: discrimination - Posted by River City
Posted by River City on September 10, 2007 at 06:59:10:
Try this website for information on landlord/tenant laws: http://laws.uslandlord.com/
What would you do with this guy ?? - Posted by Frank Chin
Posted by Frank Chin on September 10, 2007 at 12:28:46:
Put a 1BR on the market, and the rental agent bought over a single guy.
Showed up looked at dressed like those bad guys in a Kung fu movie, cigar hanging out of his mouth.
Snapped his fingers and said “I don’t like this mirror -get rid of it NOW”. Looked at the fridge, snapped his fingers again, and said “what a stinky fridge, get rid of it”.
Then said “he’ll take the place”.
The agent, scared out of her wits said to me, he’s got excellent credit, and good income. On a first to qualify basis, he’ll be in.
I’m a little scared of him.
Is he in or not??
at WHOM was he snapping his fingers? - Posted by Jimmy
Posted by Jimmy on September 11, 2007 at 04:57:27:
if this clown was snapping at me, I would instruct him to leave my unit. end of discussion. disrespectful behavior is not tolerated. period.
Re: What would you do with this guy ?? - Posted by Rich-CA
Posted by Rich-CA on September 10, 2007 at 13:16:59:
I would decline without stating a reason. Qualification is like a job interview, not like an application for credit. It is not a paper process (but you already know that) and the less said to the applicant the better. If forced to give a reason, especially in a close quarters living arrangement (condo, townhouse, multi-family), I would say that the hostile attitude could easily degenerate into a danger for the other residents. Especially these days when the government is pressuring landlords to take action to prevent crime. I would be real worried about a person that hostile.
Or, you can sit on the application and say nothing until he calls back. Then tell him you either rented to someone else (no need to say why or what order they came in or anything else), or that you are considering and could call him back when everything is ready. You would, of course, have to do these things in case you needed proof of the legitimacy i court, but the fact is you can delay as long as you wish without hitting on anything discriminatory.
Re: at WHOM was he snapping his fingers? - Posted by Frank Chin
Posted by Frank Chin on September 11, 2007 at 06:09:24:
Jimmy:
He was snapping at me. And even with clowns like this, I keep smiling, and said “maybe we can do something with the mirrors”. As I said “the guy was scary”.
I make sure everyone feels like a king, so there’s no discrimination. I keep telling them “so many good people, so few good rentals”.
I recall I told the agant later if the guy asks, someone else loved the mirrors, and better to rent to someone liking the place as it is.
Frank Chin
Re: What would you do with this guy ?? - Posted by Frank Chin
Posted by Frank Chin on September 10, 2007 at 14:34:31:
Rich:
Didn’t rent to this guy. I was going to tell him to put out the stinky cigar, but was afraid he might put it out on my head. Told the agent to tell him I have a few other appointments, and we won’t decide for a few days.
Then a woman showed up with a little boy, who proceeded to hang himself from some doorknobs while swinging around hanging from the doors. Needless to say, he stretched the door hinges and left some scuffmarks on the newly painted unit. I actually got the unit trashed while showing it.
Didn’t rent to her either, though, another issue for me are women is higher maintenance as they need more assistance.
Many times, I can’t go on the basis of first come, first qualified.
Frank Chin
Re: What would you do with this guy ?? - Posted by Rich-CA
Posted by Rich-CA on September 10, 2007 at 18:56:42:
I have found that some people are better at picking up clues about potential problem people that others and from my project management days can say that its not something that can be taught. Its a combo of data and gut feel.
I had on who was going to room with a couple. While waiting for the couple to arrive we chatted. He complains that BART (our local train system) stops running at 1 am. I ask if he works swing shift (it could be a problem getting home) and he replies that sometimes he just wants to go out drinking and come home at 4am. This was a quiet complex. Needless to say, I took the slightly risker (from a paper point of view) but quiet people rather than the all night partier.
Re: What would you do with this guy ?? - Posted by Frank Chin
Posted by Frank Chin on September 11, 2007 at 04:39:54:
Rich:
In my book, there’s a whole lot more than setting a “salary” requirement, and “credit score”, number the applications, and the first one that meets the bar, he’s in. With “first to qualify”, there’s no need to interview.
Just this one vacancy, I got this “kung fu” guy, and the mom with her “terrorist brat”. Can I really justify “non discrimination” if anyone decidses to press the point. The “kung fu” guy can say he’s a pussycat. The mom can say I got something against single moms, and her son’s an angel.
And if I rationize that I can deny them, I don’t want a mentally crazed guy there, then, it’s a slippery slope, as there’s all kinds of other justifivations, just as the “tenant” must be quiet, as others in the building are quiet.
Rather numbering applications, go on “first to qualify”, close your eyss, and hope someone like the “kung fu” guy doesn’t kill anyone in the building, I NEVER LET anyone know that he’s the FIRST to call or see the place. Some sneaky applicants try to find this out, and that could be a BIG issue if not handled right.
He can tell a judge, Mr. Chin first advetised the place on Saturday, i was the first one to show up, and I’m told someone else was picked.
One guy rang me up 7:00AM on a Saturday morning. Told me that he’s looking for a place for a while, and my rental just came up, at a bargain price, and he was glad he caught it first, as he ahsn’t seen this one in all the local papers this pass months, and he’s excited he’s the first one to call. at 7:00AM.
And it was ALL TRUE. I realize at once that this guy could make trouble!!
He woke me up, I thought quickly, and I told him that brokers had shown a few people the place this past week, and it was in the papers maybe the last two. He said it wasn’t so since he read all the papers. He’s American from his flawless accent.
So I said, so you read “Rusky Reclema” (Russian), the World Joural (Chinese), and the Irish Press?? He seemed shccked at this and saod NO. I didn’t expect him to read thoes, and I said “I din’t think so”…
At this point, he seem dejected and said “so I see I don’t have a chance of getting the place”.
I replied “NO, your chances are excellent, you sound like such a nice fella, and I want to give everyone a chanve up to this weekened, even you, so your chances are just as good as the guy who read the World Journal”.
He wanted the first appointment at 10:00AM, and I had NO ONE scheduled, but told him I was booked solid to 2:30, and I would love to see him then. I proceeded to then book someone at 2:00PM, and another around 2:30, and by them, I’ll have a nice batch of applications.
He showed up, the place was packed, and I convinced him even he’s NOT first, his chances are as good as the next guy.
So, is this guy going to sue me now?? I doubt it. I made sure I treat everyones showing up as the “tester” from the local “fair housing” group.
Even if the applications are numbered, this guy would still be number six, and I made sure I showed him the pile with almost TEN applications in it, including some old ones from a previous rental.
Frank Chin