CS - Cash Back at Closing - Posted by Frank

Posted by Mike on November 08, 1999 at 23:58:43:

Someone earlier made a comment that no bank would do a 2nd mortgage on a non-owner occupied home. Well, I didn’t see that in the example, so I assumed that the buyer was going to live in the house and therefore could easily get a 70k 2nd in order to pay 65k to the seller (and really only 105k for the house). He got the seller to agree to a 110k price (which negatively affects the seller come tax time) so that he can get a 70k loan in order to pocket 5k for himself for future intvestments and 5k to the seller for agreeing to the higher sales price when he’s really only getting 105k for the house. The extra 5k to the seller should be more than enough to pay the extra tax bill on the extra 10k sales price, so conceivably they both win. The buyer, presumably, has no money to put down so assuming the first was a way to go for him. Because if he were to do a new first, then the bank would require at least 3% down (FHA) or 20% (conventional). This way he gets it no money down and gets some money out of the deal…and so does the seller.

Granted, may not be the best way, but it is a way.

CS - Cash Back at Closing - Posted by Frank

Posted by Frank on October 27, 1999 at 11:42:12:

I’ve been studying the CS course and am confused on one of the techniques involving getting cash back at closing. Here’s the preface to the example he uses…

A property is for sale for $100,000 with a $40,000 assumable mortgage. Rather than getting $60,000 from the bank, you obtain $70,000 instead. You then offer the seller $110,000 for the property ($70,000 the bank gave you plus the $40,000 you’re assuming) and agree to split the $10,000 premium with the seller. Thus, you walk away from the closing table with $5,000 in cash.

Okay, here’s where I’m confused - you’re not really getting ‘cash’ back at closing (in terms of a profit). Actually, you’re just borrowing an extra $10,000 from the bank and putting half of that in your pocket. The thing is, you need to pay all of that back, so really in the end all you did was the equivalent of taking out a small loan.

Am I understanding this correctly? Please let me know…

Cash is cash - Posted by Craig

Posted by Craig on October 30, 1999 at 18:38:36:

I’m a newbie, but it seems to me that the idea here is to get cash up front. Maybe you as the buyer need cash immediately. There could be any number of reasons for this, of course. You have to pay for it later, but there’s many ways. And your suppose to be in a better financial position later on. Right?

I’m not sure that you’d be asking a lender to lend more than FMV if you can show where there’s equity.

Re: CS - Cash Back at Closing - Posted by WilliamGA

Posted by WilliamGA on October 30, 1999 at 24:48:23:

Frank,

I bought my first property about 6 weeks after getting the CS course. The house I bought, I didn’t exactly get at a “fire sale” price, but it was about 70% of fmv. The banker I dealt with agreed to roll all the closing costs into the loan and there was a tenant in the property when we closed so I got his prorated rent and security deposit. Left closing with a check for 870.53. Not thousands like they say in the infomercials, but a check just the same.

I have bought 2 more since and had to pay each time. Not much mind you, but had to write a check anyway.

But Frank, I can honestly say, I bought my first investment property and LEFT WITH A CHECK!!!

Good Luck!

WilliamGA

Re: CS - Cash Back at Closing - Posted by Gerard J. Bonal

Posted by Gerard J. Bonal on October 29, 1999 at 23:54:58:

Please Tell me where to look in CS program of no money Down ???
Where Do I look for this information !!!
Gerard J. Bonal
1-505-471-5332 (MST)
#3184 Aven. De San Marcos St.
Santa Fe, N.M.,87505 -or_
bonal@roadrunner.com

Re: CS - Cash Back at Closing - Posted by Rob FL

Posted by Rob FL on October 28, 1999 at 14:23:25:

All I can say is good luck finding a bank that will take a non-owner occupant 2nd mortgage for more than the property is worth.

This is nuts . . . - Posted by JoeKaiser

Posted by JoeKaiser on October 27, 1999 at 21:01:21:

You make money in real estate by making smart purchases. Paying retail plus $5,000 would not be considered “smart.” It’s little more than a seminar “buzz” technique that sounds fun on paper, but only to someone who doesn’t really understand the implications.

I don’t want to own $100k houses with $110k mortgages, and to suggest it as a good idea is insane.

How do you buy and get cash back? Easy! You buy property at fire sale prices from people motivated to sell, and then you turn around and flip the thing to someone motivated to buy. You can walk out of escrow with 5 figure checks all day long doing it that way, and you don’t have a 110% mortgage to deal with either.

Of course, you don’t have a house either, but that’s another story.

Joe

Re: CS - Cash Back at Closing - Posted by Jason

Posted by Jason on October 27, 1999 at 15:52:12:

It is a loan, however, if the property rent can pay entire mortgage each month including the additional 10K then the 5K left over is money in your pocket.

Re: CS - Cash Back at Closing - Posted by Frank

Posted by Frank on October 30, 1999 at 15:17:13:

Chapter 14 - Converting Paper to Cash and Taking Cash Out at Closing. In my book, it’s page 14-6, Technique #1, “Seller Rebates at Closing”.

Re: This is nuts . . . - Posted by Mike

Posted by Mike on November 04, 1999 at 14:34:56:

Joe,

Frank’s example merely demonstrated that it is possible to borrow a little extra from one house and get cash at closing to use for future investments, which makes the payment on the future investment lower because of the down payment money you got from the 1st house. That is by no means stupid, but actually a very smart way to get a low interest rate loan for future acquisitions. Sure, your financial situation on the first house may not look that rosy, but the overall financial situation between the two investments is very good. You must look at the overall picture, and also understand that terms are extremely important in determing the amount you are willing to pay for an investment. To put it simply, there is nothing wrong with paying a premium price if you get good terms. Situation is different for people flipping properties versus holding them (renting). For the one that holds them, you might want to pay extra if you get good terms. Low price is the rule for flippers so terms aren’t as important. In fact, a “flipper” could pay astronomical interest rates because he’s going to turn around and sell it. A “holder” is looking for a good terms for the long haul. A “holder” may be willing to pay 110,000 on a 100,000 (appraised) house in order to entice the seller to finance the whole deal for 30 years at 7% fixed. This may be better in the long run that buying the place for 80,000 through a bank with a 16,000 down (20%) and the balance at 9% for 30 years. Or you can do a combination bank loan and owner financing (like the original deal posted here) to get cash out (loan interest rate loan…lower than unsecured loans and credit cards) for small down payments on other properties. Obtaining a cheap loan from one property (by paying a premium like the example showed) to buy another property is a commonly used tactic that many investors use to acquire more property. If that guy took the 5,000 cash at close and blew it up his nose, or use it to buy a car that he can’t afford, then sure, he’s stupid.

Re: This is nuts . . . - Posted by Clinton McCartney

Posted by Clinton McCartney on November 01, 1999 at 10:18:06:

Anyone…

I have not yet purchased the course.
Does the CS course teach you how to buy
cheap and flip properties like you explain here?
I am not interested in being a landlord.
I do it for a living, its not fun…
…Clinton McCartney(Phila. PA)

Re: CS - Cash Back at Closing - Posted by GERARD J. BONAL

Posted by GERARD J. BONAL on October 31, 1999 at 09:18:06:

I’M LOOKING FOR A LIST OF Re: CS -Cash Back Techniqu Seller Rebates at closing on how the Proceedure works in order from:1-through 100 to make it a “Cookie Cutter Method”.
Please !!!

Thank You !!!
Gerard J. Bonal
1-505-471-5332 (MST)
#3184 Aven. De San Maros St.
Santa Fe, New Mexico,#87505 -or-

Re: This is STILL nuts . . . - Posted by Joe Kaiser

Posted by Joe Kaiser on November 05, 1999 at 20:34:34:

I’m not convinced. Perhaps true if there were a limited number of properties out there, but reality says you’ll always have deals much better than this We get paid because we’re smart negotiators. Smart negotiators rarely pay more than the asking price . . . and there are easier ways to get five grand.

This is a formula for disaster . . .

Joe

Re: This is nuts . . . - Posted by Bill K. (AZ)

Posted by Bill K. (AZ) on November 01, 1999 at 11:15:15:

Clinton,

Most of the material deals with “buying and holding” in order to create an ever increasing monthly cash flow. There is some information that would be helpful in flipping, but there are much better courses out there that teach those lessons in more detail.

With your disdain for being a landlord, I don’t think that you’ll find much value in Carleton’s course.

I hope this helps.

Bill K. (AZ)

Re: This is STILL nuts . . . - Posted by Mike

Posted by Mike on November 05, 1999 at 23:16:29:

Haven’t you ever heard of a 125% home equity loan? That’s all this is, except the bank is the seller in the example the person posted, and it’s a 110% home equity loan, assuming the property is really worth only $100,000 (appraised value).

Don’t look at it as paying too much for the property, look at it as borrowing 10% of his FUTURE equity at a low rate, mortgage rates vice signature loan rates or credit card rates…and the payoff term is much longer, resulting in more cash flow. Also, since it’s secured by real estate, you can write off the interest.

It’s only a formula for disaster if you don’t use the money wisely and if you truely don’t expect the property to increase in value in the future and if your rent payment does not cover the mortgage payment. However, the rent doesn’t necessarily have to cover the mortgage payment if you use your equity money to invest in another property and the combined rents cover the cost of both mortgages. Note that the mortgage on the second property would be lower because of the down payment using the equity from the first property.

Bottom line is that it’s the overall situation that counts. Also, it’s not easy to borrow 5k down payments (for future properties) at mortgage rates. Sure, I could use credit cards for down payments, and I have at times, but it’s better to borrow equity in a home cause it’s cheaper and longer term. A good example is when I bought my home. I bought a 100,000 home for 85,000. I immediately turned around and got a 125% home equity loan, so I had about 35,000 to spend on acquisition of other properties, which I did. So I guess you could say that I paid too much because I now owe 125,000 for a 100,000 home. However, we both know that I didn’t, I’m just borrowing the future equity so that I could buy more property now. I used the 35k to buy 4 other in one year (used about 5-10k as down payments on each using my home equity loan). These amounts are amortized over 15 years and I pay 8%…very cheap down payment. I have lots of cash flow on the 4 rentals that more than covers the rental mortgages plus my first and second (home equity) on my home, and actually all my other bills.

If you can tell me where I could borrow a 35,000k 15 year loan at 8%, and one that I could write off the interest, I’d be glad to hear about it. You’d be doing us all a great service, but I think you’ll be very hard pressed to find a bank or private lender that will let you borrow that kind of money with those terms. Oh, my equity loan had zero closing costs.

Convinced yet? Perhaps not, and that’s ok. As you start investing you’ll quickly find that it’s hard to find money. If you are a serious investor, you learn ways to become very resourceful. You always have to be careful in managing your money. You never want to blow equity money (especially future equity) on frivolous purchases. You want to roll into another investment which increases your overall cash flow (if you hold/rent) and net worth.

Re: This is nuts . . . - Posted by juan

Posted by juan on November 11, 1999 at 12:30:26:

Would it be smart to maybe purchase first with the intent to rent or flip or does it matter?

I found it amusing… - Posted by CarolFL

Posted by CarolFL on November 15, 1999 at 13:45:15:

that the post mentioned
“as you start investing you’ll quickly find that it’s hard to find money”…
Brings to mind two comments-

  1. Joe Kaiser is far from being a “newbie” and
  2. I find that the more I get into investing the EASIER I find it is to find money.

Guess it’s an attitude of abundance vs scarcity.

Best of luck with your over-leveraged properties … may the cashflow always be there!

Best regards,
Carol

Re: This is STILL nuts . . . - Posted by JohnBoy

Posted by JohnBoy on November 08, 1999 at 02:35:30:

WOW! What state are you in? I have a house I would like to sell to you! I can work with you on structuring the deal so you can get $5k cash back after you put your own financing on it. Lets make a deal!

Re: This is nuts . . . - Posted by Bill K. (AZ)

Posted by Bill K. (AZ) on November 11, 1999 at 21:50:10:

Juan,

That method works fine. I just wouldn’t expect to learn a lot from Carleton’s course about how to buy and immediately turn around and resell. That isn’t the purpose of his course.

Good luck.

Bill K. (AZ)