Posted by Rich-CA on June 24, 2007 at 20:23:07:
As a superior lien, it pushes things like the 1st mortgage to 2nd position so even a lender foreclosure does not clear the lien, only paying it clears the lien. I agree, there is not time limit on liens for taxes. You could guess that from the ferocity with which organizations like FTB pursue what they think they are owed.
California property taxes - Posted by michaela-CA
Posted by michaela-CA on June 21, 2007 at 08:35:09:
I’ve brought this up on the main board, but haven’t gotten an answer that tells me exactly why my thinking is wrong. So, I hope that someone here might be able to explain>
In Atlanta, where I just moved from, back taxes, code enforcement liens, water sewer liens can’t be collected after 7 years. They’re automatically forgiven at closing (well, sometimes they ned to get nudged a little 
). That’s based on O.C.G.A. 9-12-60 - civil practice. Due to those liens being considered judgments and judgments go dormant after 7 year sin Georgia, unless officially renewed on the lien docket.
So, now I’m in California and I have a property under contract, that has 250K in back taxes/code enforcement liens & penalties, startig 20 years ago. This i smany times it’s value. They insist on collecting, but of course noone buys (they’ve tried severalt imes to auction it off, but no bids)
So, it still belongs to the original owner.
The California Revenue & tax code, section 2191.3 states that a personal property lien is to be treated like a judicial lien. That’s a judgment, as far as I know.
The California Civil Code of Procedures says:
683.020. Except as otherwise provided by statute, upon the
expiration of 10 years after the date of entry of a money judgment or
a judgment for possession or sale of property:
(a) The judgment may not be enforced.
(b) All enforcement procedures pursuant to the judgment or to a
writ or order issued pursuant to the judgment shall cease.
(c) Any lien created by an enforcement procedure pursuant to the
judgment is extinguished.
So, if all those laws are in this state as well, wouldn’t it follow, that a personal property lien is to be extinguished after 10 years, unless specifically renewed on the docket?
What’s wrong with this thinking?
Michaela
Re: California property taxes - Posted by Rich-CA
Posted by Rich-CA on June 21, 2007 at 18:11:03:
No. A judgment is a completely different animal than a lien. A judgment require a judge’s order. A lien does not. It is placed by an bureaucrat, not a judge. Liens do not expire in CA. They are not judgments.
Re: California property taxes - Posted by BTI
Posted by BTI on June 24, 2007 at 09:30:39:
Michaela
Rich is mostly right, however some liens can expire by statute or case law, however there is no statute that allows a property tax lien to expire in the state of California. That is why I said if you found something in case law, to be sure to shout it to us from the rooftops.
Anything that important would be common knowledge in the real estate community and I’ve never even heard of a case being attempted. I was surprised though of your discovery regarding personal property tax liens being treated as judgements.
Someday, California will smarten up and allow these kind of properties to go to the tax sale with an opening bid of $1.00 and get what they can, and get it back on the tax rolls producing real tax income, not I.O.U.'s. I think even the bureaucrats would like that, one less thing to interfere with their feather-bedding.
BTI
Re: California property taxes - Posted by Rich-CA
Posted by Rich-CA on June 24, 2007 at 11:16:07:
Actually what she said was that its treated as a “judicial lien”, which she went on to equate to a judgment based on her Atlanta experience. However, a lien is not a judgment, at least not in CA, which was the main thrust of my disagreement. Judgments in CA do expire at various times unless you petition the court to extend them (now, here I am relying on memory of what I have read, so it may be off - I know this is the case in TX - you have 10 yrs and then you have to go back to the court to “extend” the judgment).
But a judicial lien is not a judgment and there is now law in CA, to my knowledge, equating the two. Judgments are civil in nature and liens are administrative, they don’t even come into existence in the same way.
Re: California property taxes - Posted by BTI
Posted by BTI on June 24, 2007 at 18:54:16:
Rich
The law in broken into civil and criminal. Judgments, tax liens, and everything not criminal is civil. And yes California has a 10 year period that can be extended, I have a few that I have had extended and I or my heirs will collect on in the future.
I agree that the law that creates the property tax lien is not creating a judgment, it creates a superior lien with no termination date, which is why I told Michaela to shout it from the rooftops if she should find some California case law or statute that changes the situation. If it created a judgement then the California governments would need to extend their judgements every 10 years, and we know nobody is doing that.
Frankly, I would need to study what the statute means by treating something as a judicial lien and how a court would interpret that, but I have never run into a problem with a personal property tax lien. I would guess that it may mean that until you pay the tax you can’t sell, etc. any of the personal property covered by the lien without paying the tax to release the lien or something along those lines. who knows, not me.
Anyway we both agree that property tax liens hanging over a property are not going to disappear due to a time factor.
BTI