Buy rental property and stay anonymous - Posted by luap71

Posted by luap71 on April 26, 2008 at 11:01:21:

Now why in the world would I put my name on the letters I send to the tenants when the property is owned by a trust, with the lawyer as the trustee? All the letters are returned to the trustee, my lawyer, and then forwarded to my address. So no its not signed “mr anonymous” that would be pretty stupid now wouldn’t it?
I don’t think it bad to try and keep people on point, there is a lot of dribble on here, and it would do us all a little good if a little less of that was to happen.
I’m sorry, but where do you live that is posting private mortgage documents as public record? There is a big difference between tax documents, and private mortgage papers. I think you may be mistaken as to what actually gets recorded.

Buy rental property and stay anonymous - Posted by luap71

Posted by luap71 on April 19, 2008 at 11:06:43:

I live in California and I’m buying rental property out of state. I want to stay anonymous, and protect myself from law suites.

Here is what I plan to do
I plan to create a LLC in the state I’m buying the property, and a Trust as the LLC member and the lawyer listed as the trustee of the trust.

  1. Is there anything else I should do to keep my anonymity.

  2. How hard is it to get a mortgage on investment property when using LLC with a Trust. Aren’t they just going to make me sign on the loan as well?

From the protection side, I use a property manager (insured) so I won’t have as much liability on that side, plus I’ll have the LLC, and I plan on getting a GL insurance policy. Now I know NOTHING is a guarantee, and I’m sure some lawyer will respond with some clever way I’m still liable, but I believe this will provide a good deal of protection.

Anything I’m missing?

Lawyer’s Perspective - Posted by Jimmy

Posted by Jimmy on April 26, 2008 at 07:03:52:

anonymity will last just as long as no one else has a motivation to pierce that anonymity.

think about it in the context of liability:

  1. if a liability arised AT or in connection with the property (so-called bottom-up liability), here’s how it works. the claimant will come after the owner of record. if the insurance in place is sufficient, that’s the end of it. if not, the atorney will look to the net assets of the owner. that includes the property and anything else this entity owns. if still not enough, they will start unraveling your scheme. and will do so pretty fast. the trustee of the trust has unlimited liability for claims aganst the trust. apply some pressure, and your attorney trustee will give you up fast. maybe that liability remains trapped inside the entity. but a motivated atty will have many theories which uncork your bottle. [by the way, I would never allow myself to be named as Trustee of a client’s trust. a great way to get entangled in stuff I have nothing to do with. further, the minute your atty’s malpractice carrier finds out he is serving as a trustee, his policy will be cancelled. and every year, the policy questionnaire asks that very question. if he lies, the policy is void anyway]

  2. if the liability arises in your personal life (an individual liability), your whole empire is at risk. this is a top-down liability. everything you own that is not exempt under state law is on the table. your tax returns are open for view, and they often show the whole enchilada.

so here’s the deal.

1 conduct yourself and your business in a honest and consciencious manner.

  1. carry insurance, including GL.

  2. anticipate problems. de-fuse conflict when it arises.

Re: Buy rental property and stay anonymous - Posted by Frank Chin

Posted by Frank Chin on April 25, 2008 at 04:45:49:

Luap:

Here’s a few random thoughts:

  • Just to see how eay it is to pierce the “anonymity” shield, I know an investor who recently purchased a small commercial property through an LLC. in my neighborhood, I checked, and all the paperwork is on file, online for free, including the paperwork he signed as “manager of the LLC”, with his full name all typed out.

Now, you might get away with having a trustee sign the paperwork, but if you get a mortgage for the LLC, and it has to be “personally guaranteed”, that guaranty would be on file for all to see, with your name on it, fully typed out, and I don’t think you can get away with a trustee signing that one.

  • You might get away hiding behind a property manager, but if something went seriously wrong, he will be bought to court and ask “who are you dealing with, and who’s the one giving you instructions”?? That would be YOU, not the trustee.

  • I believe it’s better to operate in the LIGHT than in the SHADOWS. All my tenants know I’m the owner, and I never hide behind the title of “assistant property manager”.

  • The best thing to do is have more than enough insurance, and be ON TOP of things immediately, OR look like you’re on it immediately. Three weeks ago, a pipe to the furnace broke, there was a loud bang at 3:00AM. The tenant panicked and called at 3:00AM, and I was going to rush over, but my wife said "don’t do it, and then get them expecting you to show up everytime at 3:00AM. So we found a 24/7 plumber, called him, got the guy over to shut off the water, and everything was fixed before 6:00AM. As the furnace was on the same floor as the bedroom, living room etc. the carpeting was all soaking wet, so we dropped off a wet dry vac, carpet washer (they’re excellent for soaking water from wet carpets) by 10:00AM (got there right after the rush hour) and the tenant called two days later to say the carpet was bone dry, and THANKED us profusely, for being there so quick.

You can contrast that to a lackadaisical response from a “property manager”, Who’s going ot call a 24/7 plumnber at 3:00AM for you, then on top of which the tenant has no idea who the owner is, and the only way to work out the frustration is to sue, have the landlord cover meals and hotels.

In fact, I was doing some work at one of my rentals, and a tenant of another rental across the street came over, and asked if he can rent my place if it was available. I asked why. he said his landlord “s*cks, never did anything, and hides behind a property manager who never does anything. he wished he had a landlord like me”. I asked him how he knw I was a good landlord, and he replied that me tenant told him so.

In my view, anonymity projects shady, unethical behavoir, and can be easily pierced.

Frank Chin

A Combo Answer - Posted by Rich-CA

Posted by Rich-CA on April 24, 2008 at 21:22:11:

The things about being anonymous is that the only way to be truly hidden is to have no bank accounts, not assets, deal in cash. My wife works with systems that collect child support from people who owe it. Their reach from here in CA is nationwide and into some foreign countries. The only people they have real trouble finding are people who work cash jobs, have no bills, no accounts, and so on.

That being said, the next best thing is to be honest in you dealings with people. But also document everything as though you were going to be sued at any moment. This makes it easier to fight back when you are attacked. I see myself as an advocate for those tenants who are being straight up with me. I fix their problems quickly, I go to bat for them with HOA and others who I think are treating them unfairly. I follow the Russian saying: trust but verify. If you are squeaky clean, its gets real hard to gain traction. Don’t count on secrecy as a determined person can eventually connect the dots.

I also maintain liability insurance in excess of the value of the assets in the state where the assets are located and a minimum of $1 million to ensure the insurance company will fight rather than pay and drop me. The trust is just for helping lawyers looking to see if they should accept the case on contingency (which means their client does not pay them) decide that they cannot find enough assets to waive the retainer, usually a chunk of change that deflects many frivolous claims.

I recommend a commercial insurance policy that includes an “employee dishonesty” rider that covers your PM. Problems with the PM can flow through on to you and often a lawsuit will be filed against the agent and the owner at the same time. If that happens, you may have a PM who sees to their own interest and not yours. In some states E&O insurance is required to work as a PM and this is to your advantage. Its often errors and omissions that cause the problems that end up in court.

Most lenders are not going to talk to you if the property is in the name of an LLC or of a Trust that does not meet their requirements for a Living Trust. You will have to use your personal name and transfer the assets afterwards. In some states the deed of trust is recorded, so this really messes up the anonymous thing.

Another issue of trying to be anonymous is that it can, in the mind of a judge, give them reason to wonder what you have to hide. I personally like everything on the table because looking like the good guy does make it easier to prevail. Especially if you can prove you were responsive when a complaint came in.

Example. I had a property manager for someone else contact me with a complaint about my tenant. They claimed noise, mess, traffic. They claimed they called the police and HOA. So I called these people and asked for copies of the complaints (the police have a record of every call based on the address being complained about). I found no records. I responded that I had checked everything out and my PM had interviewed the tenant and we could find no evidence to support what they said in the letter but if they could be more specific I would investigate further. No response. They may sue some day, but we have a file showing our efforts to verify a complaint because we cannot assume our tenant is guilty (burden of proof is on the accuser) If we do get sued, I feel confident we will win because I did my due diligence. If you are squeaky clean, the crap won’t stick. The stories of unjust lawsuits being victorious are not really very common and the low cost of GL insurance tells you how likely you are to get sued. In 20 years as a landlord, we have yet to even get an attorney letter.

Advice, whether wanted or not - Posted by blogger

Posted by blogger on April 23, 2008 at 19:36:00:

I detect a certain belligerence on your part and it appears you really don’t want honest responses here.

None-the-less, I’ll respond to your 2 questions.

First, I’d just tell you to read Jeffrey Taylor (Mr. Landlord) on the issue as he’s done some clever (probably not to you) things to stay in the shadows and not make himself a target for lawsuits.

One of them is to identify himself as just an assistant property manager for the owner company, and this is what his business cards say.

He drives an older car to meet with his tenants, and wears no jewelry and does nothing to show prosperity and works pretty hard at making a modest un-impression on the Ts.

Second, on your getting a loan just in name of an LLC or Trust, I’d guess that’s not going to happen with most lenders and of course they’ll want your personal signature and guarantee.

Re: Buy rental property and stay anonymous - Posted by Bill H

Posted by Bill H on April 21, 2008 at 21:19:45:

Yes, it will provide you a certain amount of protection.

However, you have to remember that nothing is bulletproof.

Your LLC should have at least 2 members, no you and your wife do not count as two, recent Colorado case allowed the piercing of the corporate veil for a man/wife LLC.

Yes, you will have to execute the loan docs…they are not recorded. Your trustee should execute all recorded docs for the trust.

Do not know what extra protection you will get from a property manager…you are responsible for his actions. It will give you a bit of anonimiity.

Bottom Line…the first question a good attorney is going to ask you in deposition is, “Do you own any real estate in a trust, LLC, partnership, etc” sort of blows the whole deal.

DO not treat your tenants like you would not like to be treated…most are good hard working citizens trying to make ends meet in today’s economy.

I am not an attorney and do not give legal advice, just been around the horn a time or two.

Good Luck,
Bill H

Re: Buy rental property and stay anonymous - Posted by Paul

Posted by Paul on April 20, 2008 at 16:13:29:

Mange the tennants or they will manage you.

Manage the property management firm. When selecting consider going through www.irem.org select one that is a CPM

Re: Lawyer’s Perspective - Posted by luap71

Posted by luap71 on April 26, 2008 at 11:05:40:

Jimmy-

Great post! So I guess my question is (no I’m not going to hold you responsible (I know you lawyers like disclaimers :-), just your opinion) Considering the cost and extra hassle of maintaining a LLC properly, is it even worth it? Why not just put that money toward a really good GL? Your thoughts?

Re: Buy rental property and stay anonymous - Posted by luap71

Posted by luap71 on April 25, 2008 at 15:26:39:

How would the loan guarantee be on file for all to see? That does not get filed at the court house does it? That is with the lender only, and not available to the public.

Also some have missed or chosen not to read the part in my post about living in california and investing out of state (just trying to keep the responses on point). So while I appreciate all the tips about managing them myself, I’m not going to hop on a plane to fix a toilet. And pleasseeeee save all the quotes from the guru’s about investing within 30 minutes of your house) I’m perfectly happy with my investment strategy. I took a VERY long time hiring a property manager and they are doing a great job, I send all my tenants a letter every 6 months asking for feedback, including how the prop manager is doing.

Re: A Combo Answer - Posted by luap71

Posted by luap71 on April 25, 2008 at 15:38:23:

Rich-

Thanks for the response, as we are both Californites who have rentals out of state.

What I’m getting at is, I always see these post about getting LLC and trust and doing all these complicated things, and then you find out this person has only 1 or 2 rental units. They are spending more money on the LLC, then what their rentals bring in, and in the end, not really getting protection if you get down to it. Whats the point of getting a LLC then, is it just to keep the people looking for a quickbuck away, i.e. making it more effort then they are willing to put in for a small trivial lawsuit?

Is one better off just getting a good liability insurance policy and being done with it?

Re: Advice, whether wanted or not - Posted by luap71

Posted by luap71 on April 23, 2008 at 21:04:09:

Thanks for your response. It was a response to my question and that was what I was looking for.
I was responding to the response “manage your tenants or they will manage you” that had nothing to do with my question and is a waste of everyones time, its sounds like the title of some scammer self help guru. And is as about as helpful as saying something like “breath air and you will live longer”

Re: Buy rental property and stay anonymous - Posted by luap71

Posted by luap71 on April 21, 2008 at 14:23:27:

Sorry I’m not trying to be belligerent, but that response was pathetic. And it had nothing to do with my post. I’m sure you thought it was clever or insightful, but it’s obvious and not the point of the question.

Re: Lawyer’s Perspective - Posted by Jimmy

Posted by Jimmy on April 27, 2008 at 05:25:46:

using LLC’s or other entities for RE business activites is a good idea. but not for ANONYMITY. it separates the REI from other activities and from your personal assets. if you conduct the business in a business-like manner, don’t treat the LLC as your personal pocketbook, don’t commingle personal and business assets and income, and really respect the entity as such—>the LLC will be hard to penetrate by a motivated plaintiff’s atty.

mamy people compromise the integrity of their entities, which makes vulnerable the entity.

LLC’s are cheap to create. check the right box, and you don’t have to file an income tax return for them (activity goes straight to your 1040). one the set-up is done, its pretty simple.

Re: Buy rental property and stay anonymous - Posted by Frank Chin

Posted by Frank Chin on April 26, 2008 at 03:55:37:

Lupa:

I was going through the publics records here, and found that every last thing signed at the closing is available.

As I was saying, I was checking on a recent purchase by an investor down the street from me, and even forms that he signed for submission to the tax bureau was on the record. I can’t see how he can tell people to take out his guaranty when all his other papers are included.

And if you send letters to your tenants every six months, with your name on it, how would that help you remain annonymous?? You didn’t sign it “Mr. Anonymous, your Landlord”, no address on the envelope, do you??

While some people swear by “property managers”, I rent out condoes, out of state by the way, and the HOA had to change the property management firm several times in the course of a dozen years for poor service. One even dropped us because we dare to complainn about poor service.

I can see “keeping replies on point”, but following the boards here, you might want to keep your tone more relaxed and a little less hostile.

You can be out of state and still be on top of things, with a telephone. My point is keeping yourself anonymous often makes you look bad, not helpful, and people can still find out who you are anyway, and in your case, easily by way of the letters you sent your tenants which defeats all the time and expense of creating trusts and using trustees.

Frank Chin

Re: A Combo Answer - Posted by Rich-CA

Posted by Rich-CA on April 25, 2008 at 18:11:39:

The main idea is that the Trust/LLC helps reduce the more frivolous lawsuit. Lawyers sometimes take cases on contingency if they think there are enough assets on the table to force a settlement. If it takes real work to figure this out, then only the cases that have some evidence in their favor would be taken. It reduces your exposure some.

I would also make sure the LLC is in the state where the rentals are. That is where the lawsuit will originate anyway. But, yes, the key is in the GL policy and your behavior.